Has the internet ruined Dating & Relationships?
It promised us unprecedented connection, but for many people the internet instead damaged the quality and authenticity of dating, by offering endless choice, a “shopping” mentality, and reduced emphasis on genuine, in-person connection.
Spending any time looking into this topic online will uncover a seemingly endless number of people completely burnt out and disillusioned by their experiences with online dating, and the quality of dates and relationships that come from it.
I sat down with Elly Klein, a professional dating mentor, author, and Founder of Your Dating Bestie, to explore the profound impact of the internet on dating, the evolution of online dating over the last 20 years, the pitfalls that many encounter, and the importance of maintaining a positive mindset while dating digitally.
Gareth King (00:30)
Elly, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the show.
Elly Klein (00:33)
Thanks, Gareth!
Gareth King (00:34)
Before we begin, can you tell us a bit about the work that you do and your journey that led you to this point?
Elly Klein (00:39)
I can, okay, well, I call myself a professional dating mentor. I mean, the more common term is dating coach, but I just don't like the word coach. I kind of see myself more as a mentor. So, I have a business where I help women who want to find their Mr Right, go from dating sucks to dating success. And my business is called Your Dating Bestie, because I take a unique best friend approach to this.
Gareth King (01:03)
Hmm. Yeah, interesting, you know dating sucks to success. It seems like that's a very prevalent need right now. The general vibe out there is that you know things aren't as good as they could be, and hopefully we can get to the bottom of that today. But you've been involved in the world of dating and coaching in various ways for a while now. Have you been surprised by just how huge online dating has become over that time?
Elly Klein (01:28)
Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I was sort of around from the start because I went to high school in the 90s, and I was dating in the late 90s and early 2000s. And I didn't start doing online dating until I was 27. That was in 2005. And that was back in the day where there was no apps. It was dating websites, and people were still saying on their dating profiles, like, I can't believe I'm doing this. So, you know, was, it was sort of still a little bit taboo. And now it's probably gone so far in the opposite direction that it's almost like people have gone back to meeting offline.
Gareth King (01:56)
Yeah, and I think that's quite an interesting point you've just raised there around the kind of taboo or the stigma of it. I can remember maybe even just over 10 years ago now, it still felt, like it wasn't something that people were just so cavalier about.
It seemed to be a little bit clandestine and there was almost this little bit of embarrassment around that that was what you were doing, because it felt like people were still seeing the kind of more traditional methods as a good option. So, we've obviously seen since that time that it's almost that online and whether it's apps or websites has kind of become the first port of call, and it's almost changed the way that people are interacting by, you know, there's almost that hesitation to try and do it the classic or the traditional way.
Whether that's some fear of rejection or just awkwardness about approaching people that's kind of affected by how technology has infiltrated our whole lives since then, who knows? Leaving that, the obvious convenience aside, what else would you say the most profound changes that the internet and technology has introduced to how people date today?
Elly Klein (03:19)
The first thing is it's just given you access to so many more potential partners. Up until online dating, you were really only limited to school, work, family, friends, who you might meet out of an evening at a bar or a nightclub and then travel, a little bit of travel and then maybe some common interests if you play a sport something like that, and that was it. And now you can go online and sort of look for men or women within, you know, 10 to 20 years of your age within a hundred kilometre radius or whatever, and you can connect with them.
And so it's given us significantly more access. The other thing is that you now know a lot more about someone before you go out with them, so especially when you would meet someone at a party or at a bar or something, all you would know is that you find them physically attractive. You don't even know if they're single. And so you don't know how old they are, you don't know where they live, you don't know what they do.
Now, you know a lot about them before you sit down and have a date. And so I think there are advantages and disadvantages to meeting both offline and online.
Gareth King (04:35)
Yeah, it's so true that, like everything that, I guess, technology and the digital world has kind of brought us, one of the problems that it also brings along with the benefits, is that scale. As you said, you're exposed to so many more people, and so many more options, and whether it just kind of becomes this draining numbers game, which feels like a lot of people are having that as the big issue. Like, it's so hard to find one great date or one right person in amongst the gigantic amount of people that are out there that you've almost got to filter through.
But I guess that's one of the pitfalls of online dating and you mentioned there around you kind of get to know a lot more about someone. As we all know when they’re online, know, people can be anything that they want to be.
And so I'm sure that that still can be a problem. You know, we've all heard the term catfishing and things like that. Beyond running into someone that's not as they seem, based on your experience, what are some of the other pitfalls people fall into when they're trying to navigate dating and relationships in the digital age?
Elly Klein (05:41)
Um, well, there are a lot of potential pitfalls. It's funny that despite, uh, you know, you can now say a good, 10 to 20 years of online dating has gone by, people still don't really know how to use online dating that well, and their expectations are often unrealistic and so they get, because they don't really know what they're doing, because no one's ever taught them, they sort of dive in, they don't really know what they're doing, they don't have any support, they get frustrated with it quickly and they give up.
It's something, I mean, that's how I got into this work. I probably should have given a little bit more background because I did, I mean this is going to sound crazy, but I did 11 years. I did over a decade of online dating in three countries. So, in Australia, Canada, and the US, before I finally met my husband online, I was 38 and I got married at 42.
And I think that I would have met someone a lot earlier had I have known what I was doing. I just learned through trial and error and I actually did end up working with a dating coach myself and that certainly helped, and there were other things that contributed, but I ended up like in that final year I ended up making a few changes to my approach to online dating because I'm like I'm doing something wrong like I've been doing this for a decade and it's not working I'm doing something wrong I need to make some changes.
So, I made a few little changes to my approach and it worked. And within six months of making those changes, I met my husband, David. So, I think the first pitfall is not knowing what you're doing and getting frustrated with it very quickly and giving up. And it makes me really sad when people give up because I just think, if you just change this and did that or whatever, then, you know, if you just understood this about online dating, then you wouldn't be so frustrated and you keep going and you'd find someone. That's probably the most common pitfall.
Gareth King (07:46)
Yeah, so it sounds like obviously your story was really one of perseverance there. And if that's a lesson that you could pass on to anyone, it sounds like it. And I think that that kind of, let's call it impatience that might be causing people to give up too soon. You know, there's no doubt in my mind that that's born out of this instant gratification culture that we've kind of found ourselves right amongst thanks to technology.
But one thing that comes up again and again around, you know, the world of online dating is probably tied into that, is this notion of kind of shopping culture. So, you know, we all know how these things work and it's kind of swipe, swipe, swipe.
You know, I've seen videos of someone building little robots or, hacks for these kind of apps things that will swipe like 50,000 profiles in an hour. I don't know, you know how they're doing it and it's kind of trying to beat that numbers game as it's kind of proliferated. But if people are kind of approaching it as shopping and you know, we know when you go shopping, you've got complete control over what's on the shelf and what you take. Whereas a human you obviously don't have that control over them. Yeah, so how is this mentality affecting people's experiences? I mean, is it? Are you seeing it in, I guess, what you do and how you help people?
Elly Klein (09:15)
There's that there's always the argument like, is it a numbers game? And well, technically, it is a numbers game. But the question is, what are the numbers and how do you play the game? And so, the way I see it is it's like a funnel, like a sales funnel, but we'll call it a dating funnel. You need you need a lot of volume at the top of the funnel, because most people are not going to make it out the bottom of the funnel.
And what I mean by this is let's say you look at 100 dating profiles. You might like or as a woman, I think men like more of them, but let's say from a woman's perspective, she might look at 100 dating profiles, she'll swipe right on 20. She’ll end up having messages with about 10 of those guys. She might speak to five of them on the phone. She might get asked out by three of them, and end up going on a date with maybe two of them, and then hopefully like second, third or whatever date with one of them and that one ends up being her boyfriend.
And then if that doesn't work out, you kind of go through the whole process again. It’s funny, the irony is, that people are really picky at the top of the funnel and they're like, you know, he's too old or he's too this or he's not enough that or whatever, whatever. And I just like, I'm like, keep it, try to keep it as broad as you possibly can at the top of the funnel, because most of those guys won't even make it through. They won't message you or they'll send a boring message or they won't reply to your message or your, you know, that they won't call when they said they would, or they don't ask you out, or whatever.
So, most of those guys at the top of the funnel are going to drop away anyway. So, you can get pickier and pickier as you go along. I mean, obviously, the further down the funnel you go, like when you're actually thinking of getting into a relationship with someone, you can be very picky. Obviously, you want to be happy.
But at the top of the funnel, that's the irony that we deal with, that everyone's very picky at the top of the funnel because they're already sort of shopping, as you said, for their ideal person. But because that person has to like you back and because you haven't really interacted with this person or got to know them or see how you converse and laugh and get along or whatever, you need to be more open-minded at the beginning and then you can get pickier as you go along because the guys who you found the most attractive or had the funniest or best profiles, they can drop away.
And the guys who maybe were not amazing initially, they can become more amazing as you get to know them, because they're so lovely and they keep their promises and they take you on great dates, so that's kind of the numbers game as I would see it.
Gareth King (11:50)
Yeah, look, even that from that breakdown there, you know, you're looking at a what a kind of a 1% conversion rate to hit. Yeah, to kind of hit someone that you might actually go on a second date with. And so, it's so easy to see how it could be almost demoralising after a certain amount of time, especially if you, as you said, you know, potentially open up the pool and be less picky at the top of the funnel.
Elly Klein (12:28)
Well, you could look at it, I mean, think of it like this. If you walk into a bar or a nightclub, there is probably only one or two, for women anyway, there probably is only one or two guys in that nightclub that they would walk out with, who also wants to walk out with them. Of the guys in the club that you would walk out with, who would walk out with you, there probably is only one or two in that room, but there are hundreds of rooms in your city, right?
So that's the thing, like, it's hard to get your head around, but it's like anything. If you're wondering why, especially with women, if you're wondering why you're swiping past so many men you're not interested in, they're all the men that you walk past in the street or you wouldn't look twice at at the bar. They're the same guys. It's the same demographic. It's just online.
Gareth King (13:19)
That's such a good point. I'd not actually thought about it like that, that they are just the kind of bodies in the room. I can imagine it feels like so many more, you know, non-matches because you are seeing the one by one, as opposed to just a sea of random faces in one room.
All of that said, we know people are kind of shopping, they might be a little bit pickier as they go further down the funnel, hopefully getting to that 1% at the end. When people are trying to curate the most perfect online dating profile that they have, that's their main weapon at the top of the funnel there.
In your experience, has people knowing that they've got just a few photos and a short bio to make an impression, does that result in them portraying what they think the idealised version of themselves should be, even if it's not entirely real? And then does that lead to, if they hypothetically match and meet up, does that increase the chances of leading to dissatisfaction at how fake, you know, digital dating is?
Elly Klein (14:06)
Yeah, it's funny, it can go either So on the one someone can choose like the best pictures of themselves. They might even choose, if they're a little bit older, they might choose pictures of themselves when they were 10 years younger, which can be very misleading. They can kind of exaggerate their the amount that they exercise or their career achievemenets. And also, people can be very sneaky and not admit that they're a smoker. I turned up to more than one date, where I walk into the bar and the guy who has non smoker on his dating profile is smoking and I'm like, oh gosh.
That happened to me a couple of times. And so that can happen. But I actually think what is more common is that people undersell themselves because they don't know how to sell themselves. And so they choose not great photos of themselves, and they’re actually more attractive than that photo.
They also don't know what to say about themselves. And so when they say very generic things like I enjoy watching movies, eating out, travel and going to the beach. And it's like, well, so does every other human being on the planet.
And so you know nothing more about that person after having learned that they like to eat out, watch movies, travel and go to the beach. It's like, what movies do you like to watch? Where do you like to eat out? Where have you travelled? Where do you want to travel? You know, what do you do at the beach? Do you surf? Do you sunbake? Do you hang out with your friends?
Do you, you know, like I don't know any more about you and I think people and it's funny because there are highly educated people, doctors, lawyers, business people who have no idea how to market themselves on a dating profile and that's how I kind of got into this whole thing because I'm a copywriter, I have an advertising background, I see online dating profiles as an ad and I often see people don't market themselves very well and we’ve gone from dating sites to dating apps and it's you know pictures and a few prompts.
As a writer it makes me really sad because I used to love a good dating profile. Like I liked writing them, I liked reading them, and I still write them for my clients and they are able to use them depending on what site or app they're using, but profiles now been reduced to answering various prompts. You can still choose good prompts and respond to them in a clever or interesting way so that you stand out and get your personality across a little bit better than just saying very boring and generic things about yourself. People are actually often more interesting than their profile.
Gareth King (17:11)
Yeah, I mean there's two things I want to touch on out of everything you've said over the last few minutes. The first one being that generic kind of approach, you know, like, I like food, I like sun, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you know, it's like, obviously we all do. And I wonder if there is some kind of, you know, reasoning behind that because it is a very easy match with everyone.
Whereas if you were to say, you know, you do, you like, I dunno, walking on hot coals or something, you might find two people in the world, you know, and maybe it makes it a lot harder. So maybe that, I like the beach or I like to have a, have a drink or whatever it is, you know, that's almost lowest hanging fruit that could lead to, a potential common interest ,and then you know as you said it's getting to know someone beyond that is where the real interesting stuff happens.
Just on that point as well there's something interesting you said there too around people just don't know how to kind of market themselves, and I think we all know that we've all been in a situation where you've got to try and write a biography or something about yourself. You know like maybe you started a new job or something, and you've got to write a bit of detail and it feels like the most cringe thing ever, and so asking other people what they actually see in you and the good things about you is probably A, it gets you a lot more truthful answers of what your strong points are and B, you know, alleviates that feeling of cringe. So, I can totally see how that is part of a service that someone like yourself might offer people.
But there was something that you said even before that which is around you can kind of vet people a lot more. And so in my mind that, you know, while it feels somewhat demoralising and overwhelming this kind of world of online dating where there seems to be this endless range of people that you may or may not think are right for you, but surely it also presents, as you said, the ability to not only vet people, but it does add some safety aspect as well, right?
You know, let's rewind and go back to that situation in the bar where you might see two people in there. They catch your eye. So, if you were leaving the bar with one of them, you have really no idea what you're getting into. You just kind of hope for the best. And you know, whereas if you kind of are doing it the digital way and everybody knows, like people do the, you know, the proverbial of people and stuff like that, whether it's their kind of Instagram or, or other things they can find about them online.
Does that kind of allow people to see more potential red flags before you even get to that first date? And is that almost another filter that is beneficial for users in this context?
Elly Klein (20:04)
Yeah, look, I think that that's something I really like about online dating. Like, I like that I know more about him than I find him attractive. Like I know that I like that I know, I mean, assuming that they're being honest, most people are being honest or reasonably honest. And so, I kind of like that I know how old he is, where he lives, what he does, how he expresses himself in writing, what his religious and political beliefs are, whether he likes dogs, whether he's got kids, you know, like if he's been married before, like, I think that, I find that really helpful.
Gareth King (20:41)
Yeah, no, totally. And I can imagine that, as you said earlier with the kind of funnel example, that that's just more tools in the kit to filter out what, I guess, what you're not looking for.
But on the topic of filters, a contentious issue that I've seen people talking about is very specific filters within these dating apps. For example, that I've seen talked about a lot is the height setting, you know, and I'm not sure what the average height of a guy is. Is it like five nine or something?
Elly Klein (21:16)
Well I can tell you that, well I can tell you and I'm sure it's probably the same in Australia but I believe the statistic in the US is only 14 % of men are six feet or taller. 14%.
Gareth King (21:33)
Really? That sounds really low to me.
Elly Klein (21:37)
That sounds about right to me. Yeah, because you'd probably say an average man's height would be 5'10". So that sounds about right to me. Yeah, 14 % apparently is what I last heard for the US. Yeah, look, height's one of those things. I must admit, personally, I don't get it. I've never had a height fetish. I'm 5'4". I've dated guys who are 5'5 and you know up to 6'5 but I, my husband's like average, he's taller than me but he's like average height and I don't really get the height thing, but yes I do know a lot of women love height and even short women which I think is a bit cheeky, it's like can you save the tall men for the tall women please? It's a bit naughty.
But look everybody's got their preferences but you just need to be aware that the more preferences you have, the fewer people you have to choose from. And you've got to ask yourself, are these preferences really a deal breaker or are they just a preference?
Gareth King (22:38)
Yeah, and that's a great point there around the more preferences that you have. You're obviously narrowing that pool so much further. I've seen stuff online of people lamenting the fact that they can't find their ideal person. And it's like a list of, let's say, 10 pretty serious, rare criteria, which is just not surprising that you can't find this person.
And I’ve seen people take those criteria, like let's say, I don't know, someone in New York looking for someone and they've got this criteria, you know, they're in this gigantic city full of people. But this criteria, when someone's run the numbers on it, there’s maybe like two of those people in the entirety of New York. And as you said before, one of them or two of them, the feeling needs to be reciprocated.
And so, it's almost like you said, they're setting themselves up for failure by aiming so high that you may not see things you may not realise that, you know, things that that appeal to you.
Obviously that would lead to so much dissatisfaction, burnout and feelings of negativity around it. But I guess the flip side of it is you kind of know what you want. And if someone's like, yep, that's what I want, it's like, I mean more power to them. They're probably making it more difficult for themselves. But you know, if that's what they want to do, that's what they want to do.
But with all these ability to filter things, and presumably the more specific you can get is to kind of cut through so many numbers and, and be as efficient as possible, which is we all know that's what people try and, get out of technology. That kind of approach, you know, it's obviously making it harder to find a meaningful long-term relationship.
What other ways would you say that the internet or dating apps or technology in general makes it harder for people to find a meaningful date that then might become a relationship, to then might become something even longer than that?
Elly Klein (24:47)
I think the whole thing with the filters, it's a trap. It's a trap that everybody falls into cos you think that you need someone to be X, Y and Z or you need them to be not A, B and C for you to be happy, and you actually don't realise that you don't need all of those things. You might need some of them, I mean, obviously, you know, there are obviously everyone has reasonable boundaries, but when you've got preferences, you're not allowing any room to be pleasantly surprised. That is the thing that I think that technology has taken away a little bit.
Of course, you can learn to overcome that and not judge people so quickly or so harshly and just take one extra step in the process to get to know them. Like if you're not sure, have some messages with them or if you've had some messages, speak on the phone. If you've spoken on the phone, go on one date. Just because you go on one date with someone doesn't mean you're going to marry them. You don't have to, you just, if you just take one more step in the getting to know you process, if you're not sure, you may end up being pleasantly surprised, and instead of holding so fast to, he has to be within this age range or he has to live within this, this parameter or he has to have a university degree or he has to this, or he has to be a professional or wears a suit and tie or he has to, you know, like you don't need these things as much as you think you do.
You need someone who you find attractive, whose company you enjoy, who treats you well and with whom you have an easy relationship where you want, fight rarely, you make up quickly, you want to be committed in the same ways. So you want to be monogamous or you want to live together or you want to be married or you want to have kids or you whatever, whatever. These are the things that are going to make you happy. A guy who is 6'1", is not going to make you happier than a guy who's 5'11". He just isn't. It's irrelevant when it comes down to spending your life with someone.
And so in the early stages, we can think we can make the mistake and gosh, I did for the longest time, I made the mistake of thinking I need this kind of a guy and I know what I want ,and I didn't know anything. I thought I did. But what I, the thing is, this is the thing, okay, I actually ended up getting everything I wanted. I just got it in a package that I didn't expect.
So, I wanted someone smart, I wanted someone funny, I wanted someone sophisticated, but I thought I needed someone who is university educated, someone who made X amount of money, someone who lived in a certain place, someone... I thought I needed this criteria to get the smart, the funny, that thing. And when I started being a little bit more open-minded and I met my husband, like, because he didn't tick a lot of those boxes, in the past, I would have gone, oh, no, no, no he's not right for me.
Whereas then I was starting to be a little bit more open-minded, and when I got to know him, I found out he was all those things. He was all those things. He just didn't tick all the check boxes that I thought needed to be checked to get the smart, the funny, the sophisticated. And so that's why I'm such a big believer in just getting to know someone just a bit better.
I mean, obviously you don't keep getting to know someone if they treat you badly or you just find them terribly boring or you're just not feeling or whatever. I think when you’re doing online dating, people cut people off way too soon. They say one little thing or they do one little thing or they post a picture that you don't like or they whatever, there's a little some criteria thing and you're like, no, they're gone.
And I think that's a mistake. And I think that if you could just get to know people just a little bit more before you decide they're not for you, you're gonna find someone a lot quicker. That's just with online dating, but you were talking about technology more broadly like social media?
Gareth King (28:55)
Look, let's carry on from that point that you were just talking about there around being kind of pleasantly surprised. You know, when you kind of get to see aspects of somebody that aren't kind of visible immediately. Just on the point of what's at the surface and what you can see, you know, you can disregard someone very quickly.
If you're just kind of looking at that top level stuff, I'm not getting, you know, this person doesn't have exactly everything that's on my checklist, et cetera, et cetera. So you're not really invested much time or emotion into this person at all. And so, you don't feel possibly that they're worth that time. And this leads me on to my question.
So, you've previously spoken about dating app disrespect. How much of this is tied into just natural human behaviour? And how much of it do you think is a byproduct of the way that this technology works and the way that people use it?
Elly Klein (30:00)
I mean, obviously I think it's a bit of both. Like, you know, it's the whole nature and nurture thing. I think technology can bring out the best and the worst in people. We have become a very instant gratification, minimal patience culture.
But at the same time, you need to stop and appreciate the unprecedented access to finding the love of your life that this top technology has created. And so I think it's a little bit of people are always looking for ways to be more time efficient. And so they think that dismissing someone quickly is saving time, but it's not saving time if you're going from one person to the next person to the next person and never finding anyone.
So if you put a little bit more, and not a lot, just a little bit more time upfront before you move on from someone, you're probably gonna find someone a lot quicker because you'll find that the person that you were like, yeah I don't know if I'm that interested, when you get to know them just a little bit more and a little bit more and especially as you see how they treat you and you go, oh wow, they're a really good listener or they're really thoughtful or they always keep their promises or they're fun to be with. If you dismiss them early, never going to get to know any of those things.
Gareth King (31:19)
Yeah. And it sounds like that, that, you know, everything that you said, and we mentioned a couple of minutes ago as well, is this kind of instant gratification culture, is actually user behaviour that is potentially driving so much of this dissatisfaction with this world.
And that leads me, I guess, to my next point, which is, say there's, there's people now who are in their early twenties, the way that they, see the way that millennials would have used something like Facebook and you know, putting everything out there forever, they, they just find it so cringe and would not dream of putting that much stuff online, because you know I think that they've had the advantage of growing up into the world where they can see that one mistake, or you know something you do wrong or say wrong on video could potentially have serious consequences so they're they're naturally way more wary of the technology and I you know a separate issue is I think that it's affecting the way that they interact with each other in the real world, but are people of younger ages approaching online dating and relationships differently to say, people 10 years ago or 20 years ago?
Elly Klein (32:32)
Look, I'll have to be honest and say I'm not an expert on Gen Z. But from what I can gather, I think that they really take all this technology for granted. I think they romanticise what dating was like before online dating and it's not as great as they think it is. I was there. I was there. I did it. It wasn't that great, right? You didn't necessarily get treated any better. It wasn't necessarily easier to find someone.
And especially after a certain age, like once school and parties and travel and everything has kind of petered out your friends have paired up and they're getting engaged and they're moving in together and they're, you know, if you're left single, you're just not meeting a lot of people anymore. And that's when I started doing online dating when I was 27.
But I think that they take it for granted and they. have contempt for it and they just think that it's like ruined the world and ruined dating and it's not that extreme. I think they should be grateful for it. I think it can be a very useful tool if you use it effectively. But I also think that when you're younger you probably don't need it quite as much.
Gareth King (33:37)
Yeah, no, totally. And I think that you touched on something there, which was, as we all know, when you are younger, you've got way less other stuff generally going on in your life. You know what I mean? How many times do you know, whether it's yourself or your friends or whatever, it's like, can't wait for Friday, I can't wait for Saturday. It's like the highlight of your week is going out.
You deal with the shit all through the rest of the week until you get to that weekend point and you can deal with that. So, it makes sense that as people grow out of that, they're almost a bit lost without knowing how, as you said, these tools can work and actually just pivot the way that try and meet someone without getting shitfaced in a club or something, and everything that comes with that.
But because you are working with people who are potentially coming into the world of online dating and may feel that it's not working for them or it's a problem, et cetera, what tactics or strategies would you say help prime people success in the world of digital dating and relationships?
Elly Klein (34:56)
The first thing is just having realistic expectations. I have like a 20-step system. But it's broken into three parts. And the first part is nailing your online dating mindset. And then I've got part two is like nailing your online dating game. And then part three is nailing your offline dating game.
But nailing your online dating mindset in terms of, like we talked about the online dating numbers game. So, you know, if you expect to get on, look at a hundred profiles and go on a date with 50 guys, it's just not, you're not going to get 50 dates out of a hundred profiles. So just kind of understanding, and then also sort of understanding that online is just a digital version of the real world. It would be the same statistics if you were to walk into a bar or a party or walk down the street.
Just understanding that it's giving as many people as possible a go at the beginning because they will naturally filter out as you go through the process. And then not being so picky about age and where they live and da da da da, just to allow yourself to be pleasantly surprised and just understanding these things.
And then a very sort of basic reasonable screening process so that they're not running out on coffee dates with every single guy who asks them on a coffee date, because that can be really exhausting. And so I say, look, you know, swap a few nice messages. If that goes well, you know, suggest that you have a phone call and lock in like a day and a time to speak on the phone. And then if that goes well and he asks you out, go on the date.
That can all happen within a week. Within a week, you can match, can swap a few messages, you can speak on the phone, and you can be out on a date all within seven days. So, it's not a long screening process, but it just means that by the time you end up on a date with someone, someone has taken a little bit of time to get to know you and put a little bit of effort into you.
And it's amazing how many guys, like my clients' guys that they're dating, drop off along that process, and they always say, I'm so glad I didn't end up on a date with him, because it would have been boring, or he would have been not very nice or whatever. And so just little things like that because you run yourself ragged going out on a million coffee dates.
You can also be too picky and you're not going on any dates and you're not getting to know anybody. And so it's learning the whole process. That would be the first thing is expectations. People go into it with unrealistic expectations of what online dating can do for them. And when those expectations aren't met, they get very frustrated, and they give up. And so that's the first thing, just understanding the whole process, and doing it in a way that feels as effortless as possible. I mean, obviously dating takes effort, but it shouldn't make you miserable. If it's making you miserable, you're doing something wrong.
Gareth King (37:53)
Yeah, there's a few themes that are coming up through all of that. And it's one that thinking is that the more things change, the more they stay the same, which is our basic kind of human needs and wants aren't changing. It's almost just that the numbers game feels like you're fighting through so much more because you're disregarding everybody, whereas you said something there a couple of minutes ago that you almost need to flip that numbers game and cast the net wide and let the natural filter do its thing.
So this yeah, you know it sounds like a lot of people claiming that you know the internet and technology has ruined dating, are actually partly their own worst enemy by the way that they're using it, rather than strategically like a tool as you've been saying.
But for those people, you know, who might be feeling overwhelmed or burnt out by their experience with dating in this digital world, what would you say is the most instantly actionable piece of advice that you would give them to change their mindset and get back into it positively?
Elly Klein (39:00)
Look, take a break. Just don't take too long a break. So, take a month off, you know, take a month off. Just don't take six to 12 months off. You don't need six to 12 months to get over a bad date.
You know, like, I see it. Oh man, I see it on social media all the time. You know, these girls will get on and tell this long rant about this guy, and this. And I'm thinking, it's just one guy. It's just one guy. Like the next guy that you meet online could be really nice. Like don't let this one guy ruin it for you. Don't even let a handful of guys ruin it for you. And they, you know, they sort of think, you know, then you'll see all these comments underneath. This is why I don't do online dating. Like really? This is why this one guy has ruined all of dating for you?
Gareth King (40:15)
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of I can imagine there's something in that, you know, the whole misery loves company thing. Like, I'm sure…
Elly Klein (40:21)
Oh absolutely. That is probably that is really one of the most toxic things that's happening at the moment. It's almost become, it's uncool to be optimistic. It is absolutely a misery loves company cesspit where everyone is just in there, especially women bitching and moaning about men and dating and it's all awful. I'm never going to find someone and I've decided to be alone and blah, blah.
And it's just like, it's, it's really, it's really sad. And it's like, you have got years and decades ahead of you. Like don't spend it like, yeah, in that, in that negative mindset. Yeah, it's a real shame. And it's, and if you jumped into the one of those comments, and said something positive about dating, you would get destroyed.
Gareth King (41:15)
Really? That sounds awful. You know, it's like real crabs in a bucket stuff. Yeah, that's, that's, God, that's so interesting. And that makes so much sense that everybody would have probably had a bad experience and the way to kind of commiserate and show camaraderie is by saying, yeah, I've had a bad experience too. And then maybe overplaying how bad it was, of who's had the worst dating experience and just kind of becomes this, mentally self-fulfilling prophecy.
Elly Klein (41:48)
Yeah, well, it's just kind of, I think it's letting the bad guys win. Like, why would you let these, you know, a-holes ruin your entire love life? Like, don't let them, like, rise above it. Like, of course, look, everybody needs to, you know, sort of download every now and then.
And, know, there's nothing wrong with having a whinge to your girlfriends or you know or sharing a bad experience or whatever, but it's when you let that one bad experience or a few bad experiences like ruin your entire romantic future and you decide that I'm never dating again or I hate all men or whatever, that that's when I I think it's really sad and unfortunate. And life isn't short life is long and there are many life is long and there are many years and decades, and I don't think that you should let a few bad apples or even more than a few bad apples spoil the bunch.
I mean, I have seen people pick themselves up and dust themselves off and find love against all odds. And I just have so much admiration for them. My, I've got a funny story. My husband's aunt, lost her husband when she was in her late 70s, and when she was 80 she got remarried and she was with that husband for 12 years until he passed away when she was 92. 12 years! 12 years! And you would think that like at 80 all of that is over? No. She had a whole 12-year relationship with someone after the age of 80. And you're not gone until you're gone.
Gareth King (43:42)
Yeah, look, I think that that's such a good way of looking at it. And it seems like that for all the talk of how, you know, the internet has ruined dating for so many people, a lot of it, as you said, have just can kind of come down to, two key words, which is perseverance and positivity. And I'm sure that if you are persevering and positive, like attracts like, and I guess that's what everybody's going to want.
Thanks so much for that, Elly. on the horizon for you and where can people follow what you're up to?
Elly Klein (44:15)
Okay, well my website is yourdatingbestie.com. I have a free training. It's a 20-minute video. It's called Empowered AF, how to find Mr. Right without having to change yourself, lower your standards or waste your time. I have a podcast called the Your Dating Bestie podcast. I also turn each episode into an article on Medium and Substack, and if you just Google my name, Elly Klein, E double L Y Klein is K L E I N just like Calvin Klein underwear. I'm proud of that. You can find me or just, you can search Your Dating Bestie on, you know, Instagram and Medium and Substack and podcasts and you'll find me.
Gareth King (44:51)
Awesome. Elly thank you so much.
Elly Klein (45:04)
Thank you so much, Gareth. Great chat.
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