Has the internet ruined Broadcast Television? - Amanda Lotz

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Welcome to Ruined by the
Internet.

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I'm Gareth King.
Today we're asking has the

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Internet ruined broadcast
television by replacing linear

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scheduled programming with huge
libraries of on demand content?

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Have the business models and
power structures of traditional

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TV being toppled for good?
To help us see the full picture,

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we're joined by Amanda Lotz, an
award winning author, professor

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and research leader at
Queensland University of

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Technology's Digital Media
Research Centre.

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Amanda, thank you so much for
joining us and welcome to the

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show.
I'm very pleased to be here.

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Thanks so much for having me.
Before we get into it, can you

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tell us a bit about the work
that you do and how you came to

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this area of expertise?
I began studying television.

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I was described myself, I guess
back then as a as a media

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scholar.
I still do.

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I trained in the late to or late
90s and my object moved on me,

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so I was based in the US at that
time.

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I'm American.
I've been in Australia since

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2019.
Everything about how the

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industry worked in the US
started to change right around

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2000 when I started in the
field.

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And I figured out pretty quickly
that one of the consequences of

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the business changing was that
the stories were changing.

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Like so when you change the way
the machine works in terms of

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the business of television, you
could change what kind of shows

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got made.
And that was pretty interesting

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to me.
And so that really set off on a

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journey that I didn't expect to
be quite so long.

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But the distribution model in
terms of the arrival of the

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Internet and the business model
in terms of being able to have

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subscriber funded or consumer
funded video television, both of

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those are pretty significant
changes.

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And so I've been tracing the
relationship between how that

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changes both the work worlds of
those who who work in the

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industry, as well as trying to
understand what they can make.

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All because I'm interested in
the relationship of those

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stories in the daily life of of
people around the world.

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And we still spend a tonne of
time watching stories and shows

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and videos, depending on what
you want to call them.

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And so that's my origin story.
Yeah, cool.

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And you mentioned there, you
know, it's been obviously a lot

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of change through that time, as
we all know that the

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introduction of the Internet has
offered that on demand viewing.

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How else did it make the
traditional approach to TV

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obsolete for modern audiences?
I think the, the place I'd like

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to start is sort of what the
Internet, and I'm doing my

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little air quotes here for
listeners, what the Internet

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means for me instead.
That's sort of it's a key object

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here in your title.
The Internet in this

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conversation is a distribution
technology.

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It's a way of getting video from
one place to another.

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So we had previous distribution
technologies, broadcasting and

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then cable and satellite more or
less in different places.

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Australia is a little unusual in
the degree to which it had very

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low take up of cable and no
satellite.

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So different technologies,
different distribution

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technologies can do different
things and the fancy university

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word for that is affordances.
So the affordances of

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broadcasting as broadcasting
began for radio in the early

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last century, it was, it was a
world changing technology in

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much the same way that the
Internet has been more recently.

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But broadcasting as a
technology, it can do one, it

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can send a signal from one.
So let's say from 9 network out

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to many.
That's the origin of of

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broadcast in the word, right?
So it can do one to many over

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the air.
So you know that all you really

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need is an antenna or a set with
an antenna in there to be able

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to get that signal.
And that technology again, sort

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of media economics word is non
excludable.

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So I if I'm nine network and I'm
sending out my signal, I can't

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stop anyone from getting it.
And that kind of requires

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certain business models and it
prevents other business models.

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But you know that was for
decades normal.

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That's just how it was.
Cable came along in satellite

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and largely replicated a lot of
the affordances of broadcasting

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in terms of those two were
initially one to many

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technologies, but they were
excludable.

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So you had to you, it didn't go
out to everyone, it only went

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out to those who paid.
And so you could limit and that

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change the business a bit and
and those features what the

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technology can do sort of led
the business to work in certain

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ways.
So because of broadcasting and

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the capacity limits in terms of
how many signals could be

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available at a certain time, we
had a lot of scarcity.

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So there were few operating and
you had this organisation around

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a schedule or what you called
linear, right?

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Well, what makes Internet
distribution then so different

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is that Internet distribution,
whether it's your mobile phone

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or it's a wire based NBN line,
let's say it does not have those

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one to many requirements.
It can be many to many or you

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know what we've already called
sort of on demand.

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It's what makes it possible to
not have a schedule, to have a

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library, to let different people
watch things, different times to

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start and stop.
And and that, that's, if you

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think back to how television
used to be like, that's a real

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game changer.
And I would argue that audiences

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couldn't even imagine, I think
until quite late.

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We we didn't even realise how
limited we were in what we could

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watch and how we could watch it
until all of a sudden we had

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these experiences.
Speaking of game changers, your

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book The Television Will Be
Revolutionised came out in 2007.

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Having been a leading voice on
the future of TV for so many

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years now, what surprised you
the most about how it's all

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played out since then?
Probably how long the change has

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taken.
Oh really?

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Yeah.
So the the 1st edition came out

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in 07, which was just, I just
missed Netflix and because of

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had it necessitated a second
edition, which I did in 2014.

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And even at that point of
streaming was pretty early

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stages.
And so I think when you do the

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kind of work that I do in terms
of like understanding, OK, the

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business model works like this,
the technology can do this and

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then you try to understand what
should happen.

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We could see where we are now
easily 20 years ago.

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And so the fact that it has
taken 20 years to get there, I

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guess that has been the most
surprising to me.

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Right, yeah.
And look, that would be

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something interesting to kind of
get into as we go through this,

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whether that rate of change may
increase as as we move forward.

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But you popularised the concept
of the post network era.

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Can you briefly explain how
that's defined for audiences?

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Yeah.
So I'm trying to think it

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doesn't apply the the
periodization doesn't apply as

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well in the Australian context.
But it was a way of

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acknowledging that even though
we still had television, we were

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talking about television and how
it was changing in the early

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2000s.
It was a periodization to

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recognise that the industry and
the experience of television had

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changed before.
So in the US the network era

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runs upfront, runs from the
beginning of television in the

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50s up until kind of the mid 80s
and then in in, and this is the

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part that doesn't really happen.
In Australia from the mid 80s to

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the early 2000s, we sort of have
what what I call the multi

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channel transition.
And this was the period of time

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in which cable became adopted
and Americans began to access

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far more channels.
So by the end of the 80s, over

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half of Americans had cable.
And just just as a point of

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reference, Australia barely ever
hit above 30% and Australians

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didn't start to get cable until
the late 90s.

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Yeah, that's what that's what I
was just just thinking.

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I can remember the first few
people I ever knew had it, like

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their parents had it in the
house and it's like, wow, look

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at all these charts.
And that would have been late

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90s.
I think it was.

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I think it was Foxtel or or
something like that.

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Would have been that.
And so those early in the US,

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those early systems were
smaller.

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They may have only been about
20-30 channels, but still that

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era and that kind of that
process of people adopting it

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broke up the the scarcity in a
way that really doesn't happen

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to in Australia until 2009 with
the multi channels.

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And so, so the post network era
in the US, it was sort of, well,

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I thought we were sort of more
at the beginning of it when I

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originally wrote in, in, in
2007.

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But you know, it, it, it
certainly has taken a while to

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come into form.
And it's sort of just that

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acknowledgement that the
environment for accessing video

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isn't limited just to what at
that point had been, you know,

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hundreds of cable channels, but
also this arrival of this on

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demand space that has continued
to evolve steadily.

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But I, I do think we're, if you
were to ask me where I think we

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are now, it doesn't feel like
the sand beneath my feet is

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shifting every year in the way
that it did for a really long

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time.
Like I think we, we've kind,

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we're starting to, to stabilise.
We'll still have a lot of

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change.
I think we have a lot of

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services that are probably not
going to make it.

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But I think everyone can see the
the shape of probably where

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we're heading in the next 10
years in a way that was not the

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case for quite a while.
And do you think that there you

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know the reason it may have
taken so long was, was due to

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development not happening as
fast as as possible or was it

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push back and and stalling say
maybe from those traditional

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broadcasters?
Yeah, it's somewhat different

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things in different places.
It's not a coincidence that UK

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and Australia had, you know,
what is it I player in at the

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BBC and I view here before there
was any on demand service in the

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US.
And that was the power of the

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companies at that point in the
US that owned the US cable

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providers became the Internet
providers and most of them also

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owned one of the big content
studios.

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And, and so they were protecting
businesses there because of all

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of that intellectual property.
And they were very concerned

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about what had happened with
music happening in video in

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terms of, of, of piracy and, and
ready access.

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And so the established industry
managed to stall things, I think

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pretty effectively for quite
some time.

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The other thing too, that sort
of makes a difference market by

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market was the national approach
to Internet availability and

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pricing, right?
And so because video required

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better compression and Internet
speeds, that too sort of changed

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the, the time scale in, in, in
different places.

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And then the technologies of
reception, right?

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Like I think we can't
underestimate so 2007 as the

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year that the smartphones come
out in 2010 tablets in terms of

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people with some money having
access to devices that really

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help them begin to engage with
screens in a very different way.

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Yeah, and, and, and that
engaging with screens, you know,

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in the concept of television,
one of the things I've, I've

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thought about with this is
whether the, you know, the

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Internet and, and tech has
changed the experience of, of

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watching TV.
You know, like even I can

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remember Once Upon a time kind
of in that linear programming

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ATV or a movie.
It was an event, you know, like

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that was what you would kind of
gather around for, like be at my

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house at 8:30.
I don't know, they're playing

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Jaws on Channel 7 or something
tonight.

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And then it feels like now, as
we've moved along and

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everything's so readily
available when you want to, you

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can kind of curate the
experience that you're enjoying

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by adding television into the
background in that format.

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So rather than being the
centrepiece, it's almost an

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accessory to an event.
Is that something that you you

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would say has generally
happened, or is TV still as big

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as your card as it once was in
various forms?

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I think it varies a lot by age
group, you know, So the the

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thing I have teenagers and and
the thing that's fascinating to

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me is the way that they walk
through the house, often with

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their headphones on, but playing
shows, which might be, let's say

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the 19th time through Gilmore
Girls on Netflix, or it might be

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the side men on YouTube and a
series of other videos that have

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all been queued up.
But they, you know, they come

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in, they make their lunch and
and they move through the house.

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You know, that's all I would
call all that television in in

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the way that, you know, I
probably had a radio on when I

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was that age.
But I think what's also

228
00:12:56,560 --> 00:13:00,720
important is there's been, I
think an assumption that that's

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the only way anyone's watching
and that also from some of the

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00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,200
work that we've been doing
talking to viewers isn't true.

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00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,520
It's still the case that more
than half of time Australians

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spend watching movies in the
home, they're watching with

233
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,200
someone else.
And almost half the time that

234
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,040
they're watching scripted
series, they're with someone

235
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,440
else.
And so the screens, the on

236
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,640
demand, the way that it
interacts with, you know, sort

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of the human condition is really
varied and we do see a lot of

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old patterns continuing.
I guess I think the takeaway

239
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,360
that I'd have is that it
provides people with much more

240
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,720
flexibility.
You know, so I would look back

241
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,400
at that, you know, moment that
you reference and remember like,

242
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,800
oh, we can't get home in time to
watch and such, or, oh, I have

243
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,080
homework that night or, you
know, like the way in which

244
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,600
audiences were beholden to the
schedule.

245
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,000
And so I think probably the
biggest change, and you know, if

246
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,200
you talk to young people, they
just cannot even fathom

247
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,680
scheduling their life around
everything that they would watch

248
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,200
in a way that was just normal
for folks in their 40s and 5th

249
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,840
and older.
Yeah, totally.

250
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,680
And I think that finding
something to suit whatever your

251
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:22,120
current state or need might be,
it's something that you've

252
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,120
spoken out about previously, you
know, in the different types of

253
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,880
audience motives.
Would you say that on demand

254
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,320
viewing was inevitable as a
solution to that?

255
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,880
I don't think inevitable because
one of the things that's really

256
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,840
surprising and when I think
about that kind of those moments

257
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,440
of transition from the mid 90s
to, you know, really, let's say

258
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:47,360
2015 audiences, we didn't know
what we were missing, right?

259
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,920
Like there was no push from on
the viewer side really for these

260
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,880
technologies.
And you know, like, I think back

261
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,200
to the American experience of,
of Netflix rolling out Netflix

262
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,440
was for a really long time just
a way to get videos by mail.

263
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,640
And that was its its first core
business.

264
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:10,600
And the extent to which the
company really had to market and

265
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,400
convince people that what it
provided was was something

266
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,760
different and better.
And and part of that was that

267
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,960
digital video recorders had been
pretty significantly adopted in

268
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,200
the US because the cable
companies kind of gave them to

269
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,600
you.
So to people were doing a fair

270
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,200
bit of time shifting already and
they had all those channels and

271
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,360
said there was, I think, a real
tension between whether a

272
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,280
streaming service could actually
be worthwhile.

273
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,600
The the vibe for a long time in
the US was that this Netflix

274
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,560
thing wasn't going to happen.
Yeah, right.

275
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,040
It really was a negotiation
between, you know, that service

276
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,400
and it's not coincidental that
it was Netflix, right?

277
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,480
Netflix was didn't have wasn't
still earning tonnes and tonnes

278
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,120
of money in the old way.
So it was invested in change and

279
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,280
it was invested in bringing
something new to viewers.

280
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,760
And they have responded.
Netflix is, is such a good

281
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,680
example.
I, I remember, you know, the

282
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,400
first time I, I heard that it
what used to be something

283
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,160
delivered to your letterbox.
I I was blown away at what

284
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,200
seemed like a much more
incremental change from, you

285
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,560
know, say Blockbuster and video
shops to the kind of the world

286
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,240
of streaming.
But would you say if Netflix was

287
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,720
that leader when they started to
invest into streaming, would you

288
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,840
say that either that, or was it
something else?

289
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,640
That was the kind of particular
moment when the digital world's

290
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,280
impact on breaking that
broadcast TV stranglehold became

291
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,480
kind of undeniable.
You know, I think I'm going to

292
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,760
keep, I'm going to move back and
forth here between the national

293
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,600
context and then they are pretty
different.

294
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:50,320
But I think in Australia, really
the, the key moment in the story

295
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:55,280
was 2009 and the launch of the
multi channels, because it, it,

296
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,240
it's at that point that the
business model of those linear

297
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,920
broadcasters kind of takes the
hit that they won't come back

298
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,599
from.
And, and to be fair, if, if we

299
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,960
look at their revenue, they were
in decline from the early 2000s.

300
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,839
So I think kind of the the
coming realisation and threat of

301
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:18,160
that end of that magic scarcity
that they had for so long.

302
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,880
And then the reality, which was
even though they were able to

303
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,040
own or licence effectively the
multi channels as well.

304
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,720
So 9 went to, you know, 9 go and
Gem and all those, you know,

305
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,000
they went from the cost of
programming 1 channel to the

306
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,760
cost of programming 3 or 4.
And they had to have known that

307
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,680
this was going to happen.
But the reality is there was no

308
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,960
new advertising money.
So their costs increase, but

309
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,680
there's no new revenue.
There isn't magic new money.

310
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,480
And that really began the
destabilisation.

311
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,960
And so you see then from 2009,
if you look at something like

312
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,920
the hours of, of drama that
they're producing, it starts to

313
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,680
decline.
They're starting to buy more

314
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,760
stuff overseas.
And that's a lot of what's on

315
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,200
the the other channels.
And so I think in the US, you

316
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,080
or, and then in Australia, you
have what you can get on

317
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:16,880
broadcast television eroding and
at an earlier point than maybe

318
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,440
you do in some other places.
And that that effectively then

319
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,720
just, you know, like because
Australia and so few Australians

320
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,720
had adopted cable, which which I
kind of understand as it wasn't

321
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,920
a great option, right?
It was pretty expensive and you

322
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,920
didn't get a lot for it, so you
know that it made sense.

323
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,720
And this is what happens when we
don't have competition.

324
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,960
You had a market though, that
was so hungry for more choice.

325
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,760
And you know, that's how I
explained that there's a fair

326
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,960
bit of unauthorised accessing of
Netflix before it's officially

327
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,800
here.
There's a pretty big pirate

328
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,120
culture in Australia.
And in the early Internet

329
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:58,080
environment, all of that makes
sense because people weren't

330
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,640
having free access to the kinds
of content that they were

331
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:06,560
interested in.
And so Australians runs to the

332
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,520
streaming services.
I haven't looked at the numbers

333
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,840
in the last year or so, but I
want to say from 2020, Australia

334
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:20,160
was the most subscribed country
to Netflix by population.

335
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,480
Oh really?
And, and, and I think that it,

336
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,880
it speaks to the lack of choice
in the marketplace and that

337
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,960
relatively, yes, it's, it's a
thing you have to pay for, but

338
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,280
so many other markets were
paying so much already.

339
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:40,960
In the US, you had 90% of
households paying at least 100

340
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:46,840
USA month for cable back from,
you know, kind of the 90s.

341
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,600
And so that too kind of shaped
how the sector developed. the US

342
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,280
is figuring out there was a
ridiculous amount of money

343
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,560
available in the market because
of of those conditions.

344
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:01,040
There was much less money
available in the marketplace

345
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,120
here because you were really
overwhelmingly dependent on

346
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:06,040
advertising.
Yeah.

347
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:10,200
And obviously there's been a
huge kind of qualitative hit as

348
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,600
those advertising dollars have
run to whether it's be VOD or,

349
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,000
or even something, you know,
like YouTube advertising.

350
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,920
But do you think that Netflix
may have been taken up so

351
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,120
successfully in Australia
because our networks here just

352
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:30,280
could not afford to kind of bid
on any of the content from,

353
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,760
let's say, the American
industry, which you'd be a

354
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,600
behemoth?
When I first got here I, I kept

355
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,360
asking how do you have 3
broadcasters?

356
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,600
When I realised that there were
like less than 30 million

357
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,960
households, right.
So the US is 10, had 10 times

358
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,280
the number of households and for
a really long time had only

359
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,960
three broadcast networks.
I think this is, you're right,

360
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,680
it's all kind of simple
economics.

361
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,080
There probably shouldn't have
ever been a third broadcast

362
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,600
network in Australia.
It's probably the case now that

363
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,120
Australians would be much better
served if there were only one,

364
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,760
and one that would have enough
have access to enough

365
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,480
advertising dollars to really be
able to to put together a

366
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,040
stronger offering.
Yeah, right.

367
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,880
That's, that's so interesting to
hear because Eve, I remember,

368
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:25,520
you know, I grew up in, in
Victoria, I was like 7910ABC SBS

369
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:30,560
and and that felt so small, like
so limiting.

370
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,680
So it's interesting to hear that
three, the commercial ones was

371
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,000
excessive for what our
population was probably like, I

372
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,720
don't know, 20 million less or
something back then.

373
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:44,360
In terms of, you know, those
those commercial networks that

374
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:48,000
we just mentioned, they're kind
of pushing now into setting up

375
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,240
their own B VOD stations to try
and capture some of that user

376
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,080
behaviour.
Now.

377
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,200
Do you think these are merely
kind of life support for these

378
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,880
networks or, you know, will
there be a way that they could

379
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,360
eventually capitalise on that
and and stay competitive?

380
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,240
Probably not.
Humans right now just have so

381
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,360
much choice.
And even the BVOD options

382
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:16,960
aren't, you know, it's, it's the
stuff that's already on.

383
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,120
So it's a convenience option.
And then it's a a bunch of

384
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:23,560
really old cheap content.
Yeah.

385
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,160
Yeah, look, that's, that's
exactly it.

386
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,640
And it made me think of, you
know, sometimes I'm I'll be

387
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,560
making lunch if I'm working from
home and I might have like the

388
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,920
TV on in the living room and I
see what's going on during the

389
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,720
day and I'm just thinking, this
is absolute brain rot stuff.

390
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,000
Oh my God, how have they kind of
been reduced to this?

391
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,320
And then as you said, when I do
look at the Bivod stuff and the

392
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,360
big hits on, there is something
like Married at First Sight or

393
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,920
like a, a terrible local remake
of, of an international success

394
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,280
story.
I'm just, I just can't imagine

395
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,240
how the local industry is
surviving, or maybe it isn't.

396
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,640
In the past when we referred to
something as a hit, what kind of

397
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,680
metrics were we talking about
with that?

398
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,360
And as audiences and platforms
have just fragmented further and

399
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:17,840
further and further, has this
accepted hit metric reduced and

400
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,840
fragmented as audience have or
is it still kind of kept where

401
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,160
it was?
Yeah, that that's one of my

402
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,520
favourite questions things to
talk about, right.

403
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,320
So like a hit I think we can
regard as something that is the

404
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,080
most watched, right?
Like so like Netflix every day

405
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,680
they have their these are the
top ten titles in Australia and

406
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,520
something has to be the most
watched.

407
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:46,640
Like it's just math.
And I think especially for those

408
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,320
of us who lived through the
before, it's very easy for our

409
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,360
brains to believe that being
number one on Netflix is similar

410
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:59,720
to like being number one on
Australian television in, in a,

411
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,760
in a week in 1990.
And, and numerically it's just

412
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,240
not.
And, and part of this is that

413
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:15,520
we, the way that hits on
streaming are, are, are

414
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,760
quantified is an entirely
different number, right?

415
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,760
So you've got sort of two things
happening.

416
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,280
You have almost all the time
you're getting a global number.

417
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,560
So that's kind of hard to
compare to the past.

418
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,840
And then the other thing that
you have is it's a cumulative

419
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,480
number, right?
So you know, it's, it's this

420
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,400
week's viewers plus next week's
viewers.

421
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,880
And and so you know, like
15,000,000 people have watched a

422
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:45,320
thing and the way that audience
data was gathered in the pre

423
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,480
digital time, we don't have
anything to kind of reasonably

424
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,160
compare.
I like what I would love to have

425
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:58,480
is in, let's say on on one day
in the year 2000, how many

426
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,640
people around the globe watched
an episode of Friends, right?

427
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,200
And that that's the number that
we need to be comparing with,

428
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,720
you know, how many people have
watched the stranger Things.

429
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,600
And so so no, we are not at all
talking about the same numbers.

430
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,600
And and that really does lead us
to misunderstand a bit what's

431
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,600
going on.
And then and the other thing

432
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,520
that I've been trying to pull
apart, given what Netflix does

433
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,400
and doesn't make public, there
are roughly 5000 titles in any

434
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,840
given Netflix library.
We're getting data about the top

435
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,800
ten.
If we look at some of the

436
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,520
additional data that they've
been giving us, you know, sort

437
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,160
of like their whole library over
six months, it's global data

438
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:51,280
which is limiting.
But looking at that, it seems

439
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,080
that that top 10 might be
accounting for just like 2 or 3%

440
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,920
of viewing.
Right.

441
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,440
So most of the viewing on
Netflix isn't the things that

442
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,560
are getting pushed in our face,
clearly, because Netflix has

443
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,880
very good retention rates
relative to other streamers and

444
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,240
relative to these kind of
businesses.

445
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,320
Historically, people's people
legitimately like the service.

446
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,440
They pay money and they keep
paying money so people are

447
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,240
happy.
Netflix can see what people are

448
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,600
watching that makes them happy.
They are letting the rest of us

449
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,440
kind of exist in this world in
which we think hits are really

450
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,440
important.
But I I I'm sceptical.

451
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,720
You know, it makes total sense
that obviously Netflix would be

452
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,480
driven by an algorithm which
enhances the service for any

453
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,440
given user to potentially be
served stuff that they like.

454
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,320
But that point there around
these are the top 10 Netflix

455
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,240
shows.
That's something I'll keep in

456
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,920
mind next time looking through
that that library with something

457
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,640
to watch and it's telling me
this is the best thing today.

458
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,280
I'll I'll be a bit more
sceptical about it On the topic

459
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:56,800
of Netflix.
And you say that was the kind of

460
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,320
the big disruptor looking back
to, you know, when they were

461
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,160
delivering, say, DVDs to your
mailbox or whatever it was

462
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,840
before they introduced the
streaming platform.

463
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,760
What would you say that the
biggest mistake traditional

464
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,200
broadcasters made in
underestimating or reacting too

465
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,680
slowly to, you know, this new
technology?

466
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,000
Oh, I try to have sympathy
because I think we have to

467
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,720
remember the the constraints
that these decisions are, are

468
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,800
made in, right.
I know this period of time

469
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,440
better in the US than here.
And the sector was making

470
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,960
extraordinary high amounts of
money.

471
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,120
Like it's really just been in
the last few years, years that

472
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,600
cable subscriptions, the just
the last month the US had fallen

473
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,800
to 50% of homes having cable.
And that's really where all of

474
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,760
the money was.
And as long as that money was

475
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:55,760
coming in, it was so in their
interest to just continue to 1

476
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,520
executive described it, ride the
dinosaur down.

477
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,000
So I think if we look at a
company like Disney, we we see

478
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,880
probably one of the more
graceful transitions.

479
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,040
I still don't think we see the
Disney plus service having a

480
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,920
strategy that is characteristic
of an on demand service in the

481
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,240
same way that I think Netflix
most days.

482
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,760
I think Netflix actually has a
strategy that aligns.

483
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,200
So that's all to say that I
think the mistakes were very

484
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:31,800
were largely understandable and
that you probably had a lot of

485
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,720
well, especially men of a
certain age who thought that

486
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,640
they could get out of here
before it would affect them,

487
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,800
right?
You know, retire before the

488
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,840
business falls apart.
And so, you know, I think you

489
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,320
also then have to look at that
the, the stock market and the

490
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:51,000
investor class for being willing
to, to not reward the companies

491
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,240
that were willing to take the
longer bet, right.

492
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,960
There's just so much pressure
on, you know, quarterly

493
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,240
performance that it was hard to
have a five year strategy when

494
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,120
you need to have a five year
strategy.

495
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,440
So I, I think those are the
reasons why it just, nobody

496
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,480
moved fast enough or recognise
that the business was going to

497
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,840
be quite different.
I guess the thing that I've been

498
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,840
writing about lately, no one
talked about and no one's still

499
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,040
talking about the way that
scarcity made the business what

500
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:26,680
it was.
And like, so there was this

501
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,640
invisible thing that accounted
for how profitable the sector

502
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,040
was and the, the strategies.
Like nobody knew like we can do

503
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,560
this because they have no
choice.

504
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,160
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
But that was true.

505
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,720
And so we thought that people
love television because so many

506
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,800
people watched it.
But the truth is people watched

507
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,280
a lot of things just 'cause it
was on, because they had no

508
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,680
other choice.
And we know that now because

509
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,160
things came along largely from
outside of the sector.

510
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,440
You know, I think Netflix and
YouTube are probably the the two

511
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,720
pigs.
You give them choice and they're

512
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,920
out of here, right?
They, they have found things

513
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,560
that connect to their interests
or their sensibilities or give

514
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,760
them what they want at the
moment that they want it.

515
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,840
And so understanding that a
world in which you can't rely on

516
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,520
scarcity to push a consumer into
a certain place, nobody has, I

517
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,480
think, really recognised the
difference in the strategy

518
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,960
needed in that environment.
Yeah, right.

519
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,880
That dinosaur and those are
brilliant.

520
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,160
I love that.
But those changes in in the

521
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,800
television business you
mentioned in your book, we now

522
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,880
disrupt this broadcast that it's
led to a new golden age of TV.

523
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,560
And I don't think there's many
streaming service watches out

524
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,600
there at the moment that
wouldn't think there's so much

525
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,640
great stuff.
It's just kind of which

526
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,560
platforms you actually want to
be subscribed to at any given

527
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,680
moment.
Can you briefly explain how the

528
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,880
new golden age of TV has
happened and and what's come out

529
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,920
of it?
You know, I think that age

530
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,560
really brought to you by the
American consumer.

531
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,440
Yeah.
It was really the decade and a

532
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:17,280
half to two decades of Americans
paying just unconscionable cable

533
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:23,880
bills that provided the kind of
revenue that the studios needed

534
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,480
to start to experiment with some
new shows.

535
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,200
And I think a lot of that
happened more on cable than it

536
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,880
has for the streaming services.
And what happens when we move

537
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,920
into the streaming services is
it starts to get really

538
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,760
difficult to see the patterns or
to see the whole view.

539
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,480
And so you do have, because you
have these really contradictory

540
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:50,520
stories in an on demand world.
You have Adam Sandler movies and

541
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,240
wrestling at the same time.
You have clearly what are

542
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:01,240
efforts to win Oscar awards and
sort of tiny art movies or

543
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,360
series.
And so that I think has been a

544
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,440
real challenge for people to
wrap their heads around that

545
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,000
Netflix can simultaneously be
all of those things because not

546
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,000
everyone is watching any of
those four things, right?

547
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,080
Whereas in, in in that linear
era, you really, it was a time

548
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,440
of having a brand, you had a
certain kind of show on your

549
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,680
channel and people came to you
because they came to expect that

550
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,640
was what they would offer.
And I think what, what I found

551
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,760
when I arrived was that a lot of
Australians associate that

552
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,280
content with Netflix because
although it had originated from

553
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,760
American cable networks, when it
came to Australia, a lot of it

554
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,120
came via Netflix.
And so I think they're depending

555
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,800
where you're located in the
globe, you may have may think of

556
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,960
those shows as being streaming
shows, but many of those titles

557
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,000
would have been cable shows in
the US.

558
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,640
Yeah, and and I guess networks
had this kind of star power that

559
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,440
they could use to to draw on and
obviously the same through all

560
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,200
forms of entertainment.
But one thing I did want to

561
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,880
speak to you around as well was
we know in Australia there's

562
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:16,040
local content quotas, A, and
it's still relevant B, what is

563
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,120
going on with those and see how
would these compete with these

564
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,320
international platforms not
bound by these rules?

565
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:28,520
Right, right.
So the actual policy of local

566
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,480
content quotas is pretty silly
in this environment.

567
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,320
But that doesn't mean that the
policy goals can't be achieved.

568
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,880
They just need to be achieved in
a different way, right?

569
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,680
So quotas worked on a schedule
because broadcasters like each

570
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,400
and every minute of each and
every day matters to them a lot,

571
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,960
right?
Because it's scarcity.

572
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Not with a library like you say,
Netflix, you have to have 10%,

573
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,080
like, oh, right, I mean, that's
going to cost us.

574
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,880
We have to licence it, but it's
just going to sit there and

575
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,840
nobody's ever going to watch it
and it's fine, right?

576
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,080
So a library doesn't really deal
with quote as well.

577
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,200
The conversation in Australia in
recent years has been, well, not

578
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,800
a quota exactly.
Let's say that the services have

579
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,159
to, if they make, let's say $10
million a year off of Australian

580
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:18,040
subscribers, they'd have to
spend a certain amount of that

581
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,880
making shows in Australia.
OK, That at least functionally

582
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,440
could work.
Then we need to know though,

583
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,360
what is the purpose of that
policy?

584
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,600
Is the purpose of that policy to
make jobs for Australians or is

585
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,880
the purpose of that policy to
have shows about Australia,

586
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,840
which historically the reason
why we have content quotas was

587
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,960
to make shows about Australians.
And so, you know, those things

588
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,080
could be possible if, you know,
it's sort of tuned the right

589
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,560
way.
But this question of of national

590
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,920
content is when we've been
looking at in a lot of our

591
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,800
research and it's tricky if 60
some percent of Australians are

592
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,080
willing to pay monthly for
Netflix and they know darn well

593
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,480
that that isn't going to get
them much, if any Australian

594
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,040
content.
Like it's like 1% of the

595
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,760
library, right?
Like people are choosing to

596
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,400
spend their money on a thing
that doesn't have Australian

597
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,160
content.
That's that's significant.

598
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,640
Decent indicator.
Yeah.

599
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,720
But that doesn't mean that they
don't want it, right?

600
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:27,480
And so, like, I think the middle
ground here is taking advantage

601
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,000
of the mechanisms that exist
that sort of maybe make more

602
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,520
sense to make sure those
cultural stories are available.

603
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,120
One of the big problems with
Netflix or Stan all those those

604
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,920
others are you do have to pay
for them, right?

605
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,000
And so, you know, we should not
be putting our cultural policy

606
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:50,000
behind pay walls.
So we have the ABC and SBS and

607
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,320
those seem to be entities that
probably would have access to

608
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,720
more Australians or Australians
would have more ready access to

609
00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:01,400
if we were concerned that there
are Australian stories made

610
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,720
available.
I just think that there are

611
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:07,040
policy lovers that make more
sense in this context.

612
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,960
Part of why they worked so well
for so long was that the

613
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,280
commercial broadcasters were
making so much money and it

614
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,400
really wasn't too much to ask of
them.

615
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,760
And again, Australian
broadcasters, their whole point

616
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,400
of being was to attract the
attention of Australians, the

617
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,000
streamers.
You know, even Netflix with 67%

618
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,680
of Australians, it's still like
3% of their, you know, market.

619
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,120
So yeah, in order for policy to
work well, you kind of have to

620
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,600
line up all the pieces in a way
that, you know, makes sense.

621
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,520
At least policies more effective
that way.

622
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,200
And so the world has just
changed quite a bit from the era

623
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,240
in which those content quotas
could work.

624
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,200
That that makes total sense.
And and my next question that

625
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,760
would have come out of there was
around what that would all mean

626
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,280
for, you know, these broad
audience broadcasters like the

627
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,000
ABC and SBS.
Is there anything that they

628
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,640
could do?
Could they kind of plug into

629
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,040
these streamers to, I don't
know, leverage relationships or

630
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,680
get features?
I'm not sure how it works.

631
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,520
Yeah, no, it's, it's
interesting.

632
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,760
We, I don't have as much data
perhaps as as they do at this

633
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,360
point, but it's interesting to
watch sort of the experiments

634
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,000
over time because right now
there are quite a few original

635
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,800
ABC shows that are now available
on Netflix.

636
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,080
And I'll be honest, if I'm going
to watch something, it's

637
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,240
probably going to be through
Netflix just because the

638
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:28,960
interface is so much easier and
it's going to be more likely to

639
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,880
surface a thing that it knows
that I'm interested in.

640
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,920
You know, it would be
interesting to know whether more

641
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,720
or you know, what relatively are
the number of people who are

642
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:40,480
watching a thing, Australian
specifically who are watching,

643
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,920
let's say Fisk on Netflix versus
Fisk on iview and ABC linear

644
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:46,800
like so there's there's
interesting things to learn

645
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,640
there.
ABC and SBS are in really

646
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,920
different positions.
SBS relative to our interviews

647
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,920
and surveys, Australians are
pretty happy with SBS and I

648
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,920
think part part of that is SBS
is doing a specific thing right.

649
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,200
It's not trying to be everything
to everyone.

650
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:09,120
It has they, especially SBS
online, it's curated in a way

651
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,000
that people know what to expect.
Obviously not everyone's going

652
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,480
there, but it's identifiable to
viewers as you know, they know

653
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,080
what they can get there and it's
different from what they can get

654
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,760
anywhere else.
In large part I think trying to

655
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,880
programme at the ABC has got to
be maybe the hardest job in the

656
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,800
country.
Yeah, look, I, I was just

657
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,720
thinking it could be an
indicator that they're doing

658
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:32,720
actually the right job, because
if you've got everybody saying

659
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,760
that the ABC is doing it wrong
by them, maybe the ABC's got the

660
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,640
balance right.
I, I don't know.

661
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,440
But there's been a lot of
changes in, in what we call

662
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,800
television over the last 20
years.

663
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,200
In another 20 years do you think
traditional TV broadcasting will

664
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,160
exist at all or will everything
be replaced by say an Internet

665
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,920
and and technology only viewing
landscape or something else?

666
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,240
I think to some degree that's
going to be up to the government

667
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,560
and policy.
We tend to take a lot of cues

668
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,520
from the UK, which may or may
not be a good thing relative to

669
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:11,960
the size and makeup of our
countries.

670
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,960
They're a bit different.
But the UK is very aggressively

671
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,480
moving away from broadcasting as
a distribution technology and

672
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,320
there's trying to study and
figure out how to do that in a

673
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,320
way that it's not harmful.
And I think there's some

674
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,480
conversation here about that as
well.

675
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,600
I'm not deep in those the data
of those conversations to

676
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:36,160
understand why my own sort of
less super expert in this

677
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,800
particular area sense is that
given especially the nature of

678
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,720
Australia's terrain and the
difficulty that we've had with

679
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:48,880
Internet signals in a lot of
places that, you know, rushing

680
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,120
into shutting off broadcasting
may not have have as much value

681
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,680
as it might in other places.
I think maintaining a national

682
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,000
broadcaster and perhaps one
commercial broadcaster free to

683
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,560
air and, and if they want to
also, you know, distribute

684
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,320
online, then fair be.
But sort of the idea that we

685
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,040
should take what exists right
now as Australian television and

686
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,640
reproduce it via Internet
distribution.

687
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,760
I I don't see a lot of evidence
that that's what audiences want,

688
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,760
but I think that, you know.
You know, having those sort of

689
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,200
backup technologies, it is, you
know, that we have those

690
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,320
moments.
Most of us live lives that are

691
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,200
pretty full and it's sort of
hard to get us to, you know,

692
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,200
show up at a certain time
anymore.

693
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,480
But, you know, having those kind
of contingencies doesn't seem

694
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,840
like a a bad thing.
And I think, you know, coming

695
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,760
back to what is the job of the
ABC, the ABC's job shouldn't be

696
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,000
to be everything to everyone,
right?

697
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:52,760
But I think they could much more
clearly announce themselves as

698
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,360
we're the place for Australian
content.

699
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:58,200
We're the place for, I mean,
they're very well known for

700
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,320
their news.
But to identify what is their

701
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,560
point of distinction that you
kind of can't get if you're in

702
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,160
Australia, it's hard to get from
anywhere else.

703
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,680
If you want to connect to your
community, we've got something

704
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,640
for you and really sort of not
try to meet everyone's very

705
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:17,960
particular special need because
they just can't.

706
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,600
But to to to figure out what is
the thing that's really

707
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,280
important at a societal level.
Double down on it so that people

708
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,280
know that that's the thing that
they can go to and and that's

709
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,080
the that could be valuable over
broadcast in the long run.

710
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,840
Yeah, absolutely.
Defining a much stronger

711
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,760
identity, what it stands for
could be a really good option

712
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,920
because as you you touched on a
couple of minutes ago, just

713
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,680
turning off broadcast would
probably be a mistake because we

714
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,360
know that broadcast is the thing
that still has that ability to

715
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,480
create those cultural moments
that everybody can kind of just

716
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,680
just rally behind.
Now, whether it's AFL grand

717
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,240
final, I don't know, people
watch Melbourne Cup day like all

718
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:58,000
sorts of things.
But you know, the most recent

719
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,320
one that I can think of that
kind of captured everybody was

720
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,880
the Matildas in the World Cup.
Like nobody thought those

721
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,120
numbers would be possible.
Again, you know, the national

722
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,960
team, I think part of it is, is
the commercial model is trying

723
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,200
to recreate that on a constant
basis with many different

724
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,920
things, recognising that that
people do like coming together

725
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,360
and sharing in moments like
that.

726
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,360
But those those aren't the
everyday.

727
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,680
And so you can't try to have a
business model based on that

728
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,200
anymore.
No, totally.

729
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,680
Hopefully they they stick around
because we do need those shared

730
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,800
moments for everybody,
especially as streaming and

731
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,400
digital gets so much more
fragmented.

732
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:39,960
But just to finish up, where do
you think the the idea of

733
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,880
television goes from here?
And will the technology and, and

734
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,960
streaming based stuff that we've
been talking about inevitably be

735
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,840
able to deliver completely
unique customised content for

736
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,160
every viewer at speed and scale?
Like perhaps you go on the

737
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,920
Internet and you're served up
adverts that are based on your

738
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,960
browsing.
Like, will we potentially get to

739
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,520
a point where you're watching a
film and knows everything you

740
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,360
like and it's kind of populated
with that?

741
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,640
I've started using the word
video a lot more, or at least

742
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,200
that's what I've been thinking
about or when I talk to

743
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,480
Australians about what they're
doing.

744
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,480
And, and part of that is to also
include social media feeds,

745
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:25,240
which we haven't talked a lot
about, but I'd say are very

746
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:31,040
important to the day.
It's a big video, part of most

747
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,560
People's Daily lives.
Last year, Meta revealed in an

748
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,520
earnings call that 60% of time
spent on Facebook and Insta was

749
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,040
watching video.
And you add that too.

750
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:48,840
We know really high levels of
TikTok use and then YouTube and

751
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,840
when I've in, in the interviews
that we've been doing, I'd say

752
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,360
especially sort of the 25 to 40
year old range.

753
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,840
What being on social media is
for a lot of people at this

754
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,920
point is short videos related to
their interests.

755
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,480
We've been calling it a personal
media stream and you, you talk

756
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,800
to them and you know, some
people it's just like all

757
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,120
motorbikes.
Like I, I love motorbikes.

758
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,160
I have all these videos about
motorbikes.

759
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,520
It's coming in my feed.
For some, it's often these

760
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:21,680
really different interests, like
I like crafts and history and

761
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,280
netball.
And so like when you then think

762
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,040
about the, the, the crush of
life and work and family, right?

763
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,720
And you get like 10 minutes of
leisure at the end of the day,

764
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,440
you pull out that feed and and
it is kind of delivering, you

765
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,640
know, you know, things that are
interesting to you.

766
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:45,080
I think the important thing to
understand is that those people

767
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,760
still like movies, they still
like series, but what we see are

768
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:55,240
individuals kind of negotiating
time and life and, and, and, you

769
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:57,360
know, the pressure of time I
think is a really big one.

770
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,040
And so that that feed is kind of
replacing what would have been

771
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,400
for me 20 years ago.
All right, I got the dishes

772
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:05,800
done.
The kids are taking care of it.

773
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,840
I'm gonna see what's on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

774
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:11,640
So if you got, you know, less
than an hour, you know, maybe

775
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,120
you do just swipe your way
through.

776
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,280
And then on Friday, you watch 3
episodes of that really great

777
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,160
new show on Netflix or whatever.
Right.

778
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,120
And so the, the patterns are,
are shifting, you know, As for

779
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:27,000
like, I don't, I don't think
we're that atomized, right?

780
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,440
You know, I, I, I don't think we
need individualised videos which

781
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,920
surely AI would make for us, but
I do.

782
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,480
I think the technologies that we
have now are helping us to

783
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:45,440
maximise our leisure time and to
be able to find the very narrow

784
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:52,840
interest in whatever craft or
sport and have other people who

785
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,640
are talking about it and who are
knowing about it in a way that

786
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,040
was impossible before the
Internet.

787
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,080
And it seems like as you've just
said there, it allows us to

788
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,000
greatly increase the efficiency
of getting into that, that

789
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,200
leisure that we want as opposed
to, I don't know, hoping for the

790
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,520
best on that point.
Do you think that the concept of

791
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,560
television is just a hangover
from the actual, you know, box

792
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,480
of the past?
Because you said something there

793
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,280
around whether you call it video
or even just kind of watching it

794
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,320
feels like a much broader catch
all.

795
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,840
So I'll be interested to see how
that plays out as we move

796
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,240
forward.
Thanks so much for that.

797
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:31,880
Amanda, What's on the horizon
for you and where can people

798
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,720
follow what you're up to?
Ah, the horizon is I'm at the

799
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,040
beginning of a four year project
aimed at understanding how

800
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,280
Australians use media now.
And so I'm asking very, very

801
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,080
basic questions.
Just tell me about what you do

802
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:50,520
and and trying to to understand
you know the subgroups maybe now

803
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,880
that exist.
I am easy to find in many

804
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:57,800
places, probably LinkedIn and
blue sky the most where I am

805
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,680
either AD lots on LinkedIn or
actually on my website

806
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,160
amandalotts.com kind of get you
anything you would want so.

807
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,240
Brilliant.
Amanda, thank you so much.

808
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:08,920
My pleasure, thanks for having
me.

809
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,000
For more info on what we've
discussed today, check out the

810
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,920
show notes.
If you enjoyed this one, you can

811
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,080
subscribe to Ruined by the
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812
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,200
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813
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,880
leaving a review.
I'm Gareth King, see you next

814
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:22,080
time.