Has the internet ruined Gambling? – Mark Kempster

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Welcome to Ruined by the
Internet.

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I'm Gareth King.
Today we're asking has the

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Internet ruined gambling?
It promised to modernise an age

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old activity bringing new
convenience to a quick thrill.

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Instead, it's delivered a
predatory 24/7 addiction machine

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that exploits our psychology
with algorithms leading to what

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many consider a serious public
health crisis.

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To help us understand what's
really at stake, we're joined by

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Mark Kempster, A gambling reform
advocate and member of

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Australia's Alliance for
Gambling Reforms Voices of Lived

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Experience programme.
Mark, thank you so much for

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joining us and welcome to the
show.

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Not anytime.
Glad to be on.

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Before we get into it today, can
you just tell us a bit about the

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work that you do and the journey
that's LED you to this point?

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Yeah, certainly.
So all my young adult life and

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it's my 20s, I developed, I had
a gambling addiction and it went

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through at least 10 years of my
life, probably a little bit more

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when I, when I really think
about it.

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But yeah, so I, I battled that
for a really long time, had huge

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effect on my life and to this
day still affects me to, to an

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extent.
But yeah, I managed to get get

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past it.
Now I'll be 6 years without a

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bet tomorrow.
So the time to come along, which

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is kind of an anniversary for
me.

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So but yeah, now, now I work for
work alongside the alliance of

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gambling reformers with the
experience advocates.

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So I really try to push for
reforms and and trying to help

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as many people as I can to not
go down the path.

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So I did and try and make it
safer for people to to enjoy a

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bit without developing an an
addiction.

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Yeah, brilliant.
I mean, look, I'm sure everybody

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that's been awake for the last
decade or so, it's just seeing

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how much gambling and
normalisation of it has

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permeated everything.
We're gonna talk about how all

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of that's happened today, but we
are also going to be talking

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about how the Internet and tech
has transformed gambling to to

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the beast that it is today.
Looking back, what has surprised

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you the most at how the impact
of the Internet and technology

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has played out in the gambling
space so far?

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Oh it changed my life.
Like I was been from someone who

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enjoyed a bet on a weekend after
I played footy when you had to

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physically go and have a bet at
the pub or at the local TAB to

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to someone who without the
Internet wouldn't have been able

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to do like would have probably
still been OK doing that for

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most of the time.
But once we developed sports bet

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apps and and gambling apps in
Australia, it's had a huge

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effect on the way we gamble in
Australia.

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It's had a huge effect on the
mental health of people in

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Australia and it's had a huge
effect on communities in general

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with the amount of other things
that come out of addictions that

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have been caused by our move to
to gamble online and have it in

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our pockets every day of the
week.

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It is an issue that we have been
hearing about.

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It's feels like forever within
Australia.

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I can't even recall how long
I've been hearing stories of

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people that would get their pay
and just like put it straight

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into the pokies.
And we've known that they've

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been this crazy problem and it
feels like there's constantly

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talk of some kind of reform and,
and it never happens.

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And we know that pokies provide
so much revenue to the venues

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that they're in, those you have
to actually go and physically

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enter the space to sit down and
do it.

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Now, as as we all know through
the rise of smartphones and the

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and the Internet like this
access that now we have is

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constantly in your pocket 24/7.
And we all know people react the

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way they react to their phone.
They're constantly checking it,

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constantly get a notification,
see what's going on if if

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someone's a heroin addict, like
the worst thing in the world,

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people see as the dealer trying
to push heroin on a heroin

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addict.
But it feels like gambling.

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It's that is so normal and
there's so many platforms out

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there, like I'm losing count of
how many I see popping up.

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You can't turn on the TV without
seeing marketing and advertising

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for gaming, let alone any kind
of sporting event, which feels

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like it's just become so
ingrained within the experience

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of sport itself.
But when it does come to those

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phone based gambling apps, can
you explain to us how the design

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of those makes them just so
addictive for users?

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Well.
They're, they're designed to, to

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keep you betting as long as
possible.

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And, and I know for a fact that
the, the companies use

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psychologists to make sure that
you are in the app as long as

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possible, like where they don't
tell you how there's no time.

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You can't see the time on the
apps.

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So I don't know how long we've
been in there.

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Like with the pokie machine they
have, they make it very easy to

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deposit money, but make it very
hard to withdraw money on the

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apps.
They give you bonus bets, They

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give you inducements to continue
to bet for as long as possible.

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And they always ask you the
questions like, what can we do

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to help help you with your
betting?

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They want to make it a
community.

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They want to have this huge bet
with mates idea that, which is

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really a toxic thing that to put
out into the world that you'll

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enjoy your activity or your
sport or whatever you're

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watching more if you're betting
on it with your mates.

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So they they they make it,
they're trying to make the

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community of people to normalise
it across Australia and they've

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done a really good job with it.
You said like what we see it

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everywhere.
We we can't get away from it.

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I feel like I probably noticed
it more than the normal person

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in Australia.
But even you saying that you

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notice so much Gareth.
It's it's just that like if that

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that they have intrinsically
tried to link betting with sport

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or betting with anything really.
Like you can bet on Master Chef,

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you can bet on the stocks are
going to go up and down.

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You can bet on interest rates
going up and down things along

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these lines.
So they've made it part of

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everyday life and trying to
normalise it and make their

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their apps is easy to use and
it's as easy as possible to try

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and keep you there longer.
Is is their whole goal with what

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they're trying to do at the
moment?

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Yeah, look, and and that's,
that's wholly unsurprising,

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especially as we know that the
way that all these social media

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apps, whatever are built for
that to get people in and use

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them as long as possible.
I think for me, the distinction

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between say, I don't know,
someone that claims to be just

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addicted to TikTok, you know
what I mean?

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Like they're they're wasting
time consuming whatever videos

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they're in, content they're
looking at.

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But it doesn't have that
financial implication, which to

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me is the really insidious thing
about the way that these

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gambling apps have developed.
You know, that's interesting to

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hear as well.
They make it really difficult to

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take the money out.
And it makes me think back to,

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you know, those shady films
you've watched, like Vegas

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casinos, you know what I mean?
Like someone wins big and rather

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than letting you cash out the
computer room and all of this

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other stuff.
So hopefully exactly.

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Yeah, win it back.
But I think that if if someone

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does have that addiction,
whether it's an addiction or

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just a compulsion to be on the
phone just in general, and then

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that opportunity is there.
It's just frictionless.

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Just so easy for them to just
keep going and going and going.

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Obviously that type of
personality has always been

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there.
Do you think that it's a case

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that this online and and app
based betting targets those

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people simply because the the
barriers to reaching them are

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largely removed?
Or do you think that these apps

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are potentially creating more of
those people simply by the

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nature of the way that we
interact with our phones and

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technology in general?
So they use that kind of side

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door to to bring.
In the, I think, yeah, I, I

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think it's, it's creating more
of them.

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I think there's always, as you
said, there's always been people

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with personalities like that.
But I think the way they have

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set the industry up now and the
way they deliberately target

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specific demographics of people
who will.

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But basically their whole, their
whole goal is to try and target

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8 into 34 year olds in the
community, whether it's a lot,

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mainly males, but they do target
females as well these days with

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it because they're, they're
targeting people whose brains

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are still developing at the
time.

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And they, they, they want to
intrinsically link gambling with

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community basically, and, and,
and make it look like they're

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the good guys and they're just
there to offer you some, some,

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some good times with your mates.
So I think it's creating more

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people like that with the way
they've set things up and in

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particular with, with
inducement, say offer like the

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bonus bets and, and deposit
matches and, or the, the

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thousands of things that I've
seen now that other people have

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shown me now I'm helping people
recover.

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Like it's actually quite
criminal some of the stuff these

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guys are offering to try and
take your betting longer.

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It's it's really nasty stuff the
way they kind of hook you onto

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the loop with it.
Yeah, like as you said this,

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there was definitely some of it
to start with, but yeah, it it's

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getting out of hand at the
moment.

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Yeah, look, that's again
completely unsurprising.

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At the end of the day, it is a
business trying to extract as

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much money as it can out of
people.

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Except this time it's it's feels
just incredibly predatory.

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But what are some of those
tactics that you just alluded to

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that the platforms kind of
whether they use it to target

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new users, build a relationship
with current users, or even

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just, you know, maintain that
user engagement.

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You said a couple of things
there about offering different

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sorts of bets or maybe special
access or something.

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Like what?
What are some of the examples

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that they do?
Oh, look, they, they offer

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tickets to to football matches,
they offer tickets to the grand

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finals, to the Australian Open,
to the State of Origin, to the

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Spring carnival in RKS that they
have specific VIP customer

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relations, people who pretend to
be your friends, basically who

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will call you and they will
they'll chat to you and ask you,

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hey, what are you going to be on
today?

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Yeah.
And I liked it that top of it

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too.
And they, they ask you how your

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your family's going and they ask
you like how your dog's going,

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things along these lines, like
they want to pretend to be your

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friend.
And this really insidious

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behaviour of trying to build a
relationship with someone when

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all these VIP, the VIP customer
relations people all work on

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Commission as well.
So they're like, I can have

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someone there trying to get you
to bet more, not really care

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about how much you are betting
because they're going to make

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more money off you if you do a
bit more.

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That type of relationship is, is
so toxic.

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But we've built an industry in
Australia where it's allowed

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because we don't have enough
regulation in place to stop it.

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I had one person in particular I
worked with who was offered for

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50% of his losses back if he
kept betting with them every

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Saturday.
So because they want him to bet

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more and more and more, but they
would offer him.

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Yeah, the as long as you bet so
much on a Saturday, we'll give

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half of it back to you when
bonus bets.

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And you can bet the next day
with that as well.

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Like just things like that, to
keep you in their circle, to

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keep, to make you feel like
you're such a special person

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when the whole goal is to try
and slicing as much money out of

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your pocket as possible.
Yeah, even even the way you've

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explained it there as a bonus
bit like, you know,

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psychologically I can imagine
it's like, oh, real.

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Money like it's not real money.
No, Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm

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potentially only losing half as
much.

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It's OK.
It's only half as bad.

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And then like you said, it's not
even real money.

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Like you'll just lose it again
the next day.

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So it's just like, you know,
psychologically it makes so much

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sense for them to offer it like
that rather than just kind of a

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cash back.
But it just seems again, you're

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there the next day and you might
be like, I again, I don't know

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what, what kind of amounts that
this stuff represents.

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But let's say you've got now 500
bucks left the next day, you're

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00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,560
like, oh, well, I didn't lose
that 500 yesterday.

227
00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,160
You'll potentially lose that and
more the next day.

228
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,040
And, and you, you mentioned
something a couple of minutes

229
00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,720
ago as well around the target, I
guess the target audience or

230
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,040
group priority being those 18 to
34 year olds.

231
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,720
When I've been looking into this
as well, looking at some of the,

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00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,360
the findings, it's actually
quite shocking to me the stats,

233
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,600
especially around that 18 to 34
year old age group.

234
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,880
It was in the the AMU report, I
think it was that I found it

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00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:24,040
says that while, you know, for
regular online gambling, 68% of

236
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,480
of users are considered at risk.
But in that age group that you

237
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,320
mentioned 18 to 34, that jumps
to 82%.

238
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,440
Now I'm assuming that that's
because you said that the brain

239
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,440
is, is is not as developed to
that kind of impulse control

240
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,040
stuff.
But we're into like a A+

241
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,880
territory if this was a a School
Report arcing as to how

242
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,040
dangerous this is for 18 to 34
year old.

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00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,720
You mentioned, you know, the
regulations just kind of can't

244
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,840
or won't do anything about it.
Like how is this happening for

245
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,000
so long?
I can, I've got a lot of

246
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,800
thoughts on that, but I probably
can't say a lot of because so

247
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,880
don't start swearing on your
podcast.

248
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,960
But like it's, but the amount of
LAX regulation that is in place

249
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,320
in this country is due to a few
things.

250
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,200
Like we have a government that's
beholden to the industry and

251
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,400
it's being proven now really
that they don't want to do

252
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,720
anything about it because it's
an easy tax revenue for them to

253
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,440
bring in.
Unfortunately, we have the Labor

254
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,680
Party in Australia, federal
levels, who are the only Western

255
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,600
civilised democracy party who
are in poking machines and make

256
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,880
revenue money off them.
So like we have a really a

257
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,560
really strong sporting industry
in Australia that have a lot of

258
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:40,480
power with the AFL and the NRL
who wield their power behind the

259
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,600
scenes on an incredibly large
basis.

260
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,360
They the amount of times that
I've tried to speak with people

261
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,560
in thamber and can't get
meetings with people to try and

262
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:49,960
talk about regulations and the
damage it's doing to people.

263
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,520
Because the AFL, NRL having
meetings with people and they're

264
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,760
trying to push their agendas at
their end.

265
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,120
Because I don't want to lose the
gambling advertising revenue

266
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,440
like we that there are so many
offshoots of the reason why and

267
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,560
we have quasi national regulator
in the NT who all our gambling

268
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:09,160
companies to Australia will 95%
of them are regulated and

269
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,720
licenced out of the NT because
of the tax offsets they get up

270
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,600
there and we'd have an industry
up there which acts with no

271
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,320
regulation at all up we the four
Corners report that was out two

272
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,160
weeks ago that Steve can I get
on the ABC, which is fantastic

273
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,440
just really showed that up that
they have the national NT Racing

274
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,600
Commission don't even have any
full time staff and they're

275
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,960
supposed to be the national
regulator of a $50 billion

276
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,240
industry in Australia.
And we wonder why leaving their

277
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,400
companies keep popping up and
doing whatever they want to do

278
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,640
at the moment because they know
they could go and move their

279
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,400
bases up there and and act like
Cowboys pretty much with no type

280
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,640
of punishments.
They get absolute lettuce leaf

281
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,040
punishments like on the wrist
type of stuff when they do do

282
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,560
something wrong.
So there's five things for you.

283
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,360
There's probably a lot more of
it as well, but like it's

284
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,400
there's so many offshoots of it
that we have problems with in

285
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,520
this country.
That is crazy.

286
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,720
I didn't know that about the NT.
And to hear there, as you said,

287
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,120
it's a $50 billion industry with
no full time staffing in the

288
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,840
regulation body.
Like I'm kind of chuckling about

289
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,760
it now when you're laughing.
UK, sorry yeah yeah, like the

290
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,240
the UK have 500 full time staff
for their gambling industry and

291
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:16,440
we have none.
We have what's?

292
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,760
The size of the UK.
We work gambling industry

293
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,280
compared to ours.
On a actual monetary stance,

294
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,760
it's bigger, but we buy like not
even close per capita, the

295
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,960
biggest gambling industry and
the biggest losses for any

296
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,760
country in the world per capita
with no one even comes close to

297
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,320
the amount of money we lose in
Australia on gambling.

298
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,080
So to have A, to have a national
regulator that can't even have

299
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,800
full time staff that's based in
the back office in the Northern

300
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,760
Territory, it just beggars my
life.

301
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,320
And so is, is that national
regulator an an arm of the

302
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,240
government like, or is it an
independent thing like how, how

303
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,000
does that relationship work?
It's an arm of the NT

304
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,560
government, so they are, they
are in charge of it.

305
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,720
They've never been officially
given the title of a national

306
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,880
regulator, but given that the
amount of gambling companies

307
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,760
that are based in the NT like to
insist that basically about 95%

308
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,880
of all the companies in
Australia are based, have put

309
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,800
their operations in because of
the tax offsets.

310
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,440
Like, yeah, they are pretty much
the national regulator at the

311
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,360
moment.
In that sense for a whole

312
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,680
industry, we we don't have a
national regulator.

313
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,200
The federal government's never
put anything in place to have a

314
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,520
national regulator in place.
It's one of the key

315
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,840
recommendations of Peter
Murphy's report that

316
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,760
unfortunately he's still sitting
on the government's desk at the

317
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,120
moment.
And outside of the ban of

318
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,680
gambling advertising, she wanted
to to introduce that was the

319
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,080
second main point of it, that we
can't have an industry that's

320
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,040
worth $50 billion that doesn't
have any independent oversight

321
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,800
to it.
That just seems insane to me.

322
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,200
That's the first time I'd, I'd.
Yeah, it's ridiculous.

323
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,200
I heard that's that and and you
know, I'm not even in that world

324
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,880
and that just seems crazy.
What what do you think the

325
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,680
stalling and the delay is all
about?

326
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,640
I mean, obviously you said
there's vested interest, but I

327
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,440
mean, I can just imagine that an
industry that size the the lobby

328
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,240
is just so powerful.
And as you said, if they're the

329
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,480
ones getting the access, then
what hope do normal people

330
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,160
having problems with these have?
But has there been any positive

331
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,760
movement with regulation as more
and more information and

332
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,200
statistics and data comes out
about, you know, the damage that

333
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,600
these gambling apps are doing?
Not, not really.

334
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,800
The last few years the, the main
two things like that, the, the

335
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,280
federal government introduced
this bet stop, which has been

336
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,120
OK, like so bet stop is a
national self exclusion

337
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,480
register, which we didn't have
up until two years ago.

338
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,040
So you're actually allowed to,
you can put your name in on

339
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,800
that.
It's supposed to block companies

340
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,760
from contacting you and, and
letting you sign up to any type

341
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,440
of gambling company in
Australia.

342
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,680
Unfortunately, there's still
plenty of cases where companies

343
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,640
are getting around the bet stop
laws.

344
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,560
There's just one this week which
David Poker brought up and sent

345
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,240
it estimates around a company in
Queensland who they said, oh,

346
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,680
they sent a letter out through
all their self excluded

347
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,120
customers and said we know
you're self excluded.

348
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,240
We just want to let you know
that we're here if you ever want

349
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,800
to do punt again, you can come
back with a new account to us.

350
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,400
So they're not actually offering
gambling services that the how

351
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,960
hard that is for someone like
myself to get an email like

352
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,839
that.
Even if you are self excluded,

353
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,040
it makes you question what
you're doing.

354
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,839
It possibly makes you go in bed
again because you've got so many

355
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:19,119
doubts in your head.
I've got so many people that

356
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,040
I've helped over the last six
years who have fallen back into

357
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,480
their addictions because of the
contact they get from companies

358
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,560
when they shouldn't have.
It is ridiculous.

359
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,600
There is so many instances of
these sort of cases that the,

360
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,240
the, the national requires a
national regulator in the NT

361
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,800
have dealt with where they get
10,012 thousand dollar fines.

362
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,760
When I know for a fact some
people have taken their lives

363
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,600
because of the, the contact
they've had.

364
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,440
And they feel like they're,
they're never going to be able

365
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,240
to get away from it.
They've done all the right

366
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,800
things that they can't put
themselves on in more self

367
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,080
exclusion registers.
And they're still getting phone

368
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,640
calls every week or they're
getting emails every second week

369
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,160
telling them to bed again.
It's like, it is so bad.

370
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,440
Like I Yeah.
Yeah.

371
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,800
How do, how do they get around?
Like we know that companies can

372
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,280
buy email lists and databases.
Is it simply a case of that or

373
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,800
is it they don't care?
As you said, the slap on the

374
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,840
wrist is just so miniscule
compared to what's potentially

375
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,520
theirs.
Yeah, I think that's the case.

376
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,760
Like I even, I, I still get them
to this day.

377
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,440
I got 120 minutes before I come
on the chat with you.

378
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,640
Yeah, if I got an email, an
email from a company offering me

379
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,560
horse tipping services for the
spring carnival, like I think 1,

380
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,440
because I had a history of
gambling heavily and I had a

381
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,600
history of going to all these
different gambling websites in

382
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,440
Australia.
Your email gets out there as we

383
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,280
know how the Internet works,
that the email list gets sold

384
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,320
off to different companies.
And there's also a lot of people

385
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,480
in the gambit industry who don't
really care about the penalties

386
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,440
that there is.
So they, they will go from one

387
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,720
company to another, type the
books with them from one

388
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,080
company, start up a new company
and then they know they'll only

389
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,080
get a slap on the wrist if they
do it the first time.

390
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,200
They know they get a slap on the
wrist.

391
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,320
They do it the second time.
So they're not that they're not

392
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,200
really scared about doing this
to people.

393
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,360
And the, the money they make off
people is I said, like I said,

394
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,840
they they can get a $10,000
fine, but they can make that

395
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,880
money back in half an hour off
someone of one person, let alone

396
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,240
the 500 and 400 other people to
send it to.

397
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,160
So that they don't, but that
there's no, there's no nothing

398
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,600
in place to stop.
I'm really doing that.

399
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,280
At the moment, so that just so
I'm clear, that $10,000 fine is

400
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,240
at once not times 500.
No, just once.

401
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,440
Yeah.
So like there was a case with

402
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,400
sports bet last year.
This is a bigger on the bigger

403
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,840
terms of things.
They emailed 746 people I think

404
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,600
it was on spring carnival week
and they blamed him an error of

405
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,760
it which I doubt that they they
went to all their a lot of their

406
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,080
self exploited customers.
A lot of those people complained

407
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,920
and they got fines, 50 odd
$1000.

408
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,920
We even know that like the
amount of money they could, they

409
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,920
would have probably made off
those emails going out would

410
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,680
have been 10 times that the end
of that week.

411
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,040
So the the the fines that they
are just, they don't, they don't

412
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,960
put anyone off.
So they know they make the money

413
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,440
back.
Yeah, just that that we've just

414
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,040
just touched on there is is
almost another side that the

415
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,400
Internet and tech is enabling,
which is the selling off of

416
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,200
those mailing lists and and
databases, you know, rather than

417
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,200
just these addictive apps and
contact to people who are meant

418
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,200
to be on self exclusion.
It seems like we.

419
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,440
With with enough money and
access, you could mine almost

420
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,280
anything about anybody and then
use that to target them, you

421
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,760
know, for this exact sort of
stuff.

422
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,240
But beyond mailing lists that
they shouldn't be using, what

423
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,000
are some of the other ways that
these companies use through data

424
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,600
to to go after people now,
whether they've got a history of

425
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,480
gambling or is do they go after
people that don't but they

426
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,480
realise they might be
susceptible to it?

427
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,120
I think, I think they target
anyone who's got a some type of

428
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:45,120
inkling that they might like
sport, they might like a popular

429
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:46,880
culture event that's going to
have a market up.

430
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,880
So I know and I've and like I've
spent days trying to go through

431
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,160
my Instagram or what, what
Snapchat or whatever I'm on and

432
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,280
trying to change my ad
preferences to stop getting

433
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,080
gambling edge, which I'll give
it up on now.

434
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,600
I, I'm, I just, I have to just
put up with it now, which is

435
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,480
horrible, but I can't get away
from it.

436
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,520
But I know there's like when I
tried to block one of the

437
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,840
gambling ads, I went right
through the whole process, the

438
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,480
app references and it was
because they said you were

439
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,840
getting this ad because you
looked up football, you looked

440
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,720
up men's clothing and you looked
up music so that it wasn't even

441
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,680
to do.
And I, I love my music.

442
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,240
I I think I'm quite a
fashionable person.

443
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,680
I'd like to dress up like I'm
looking at things like that all

444
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,160
the time.
So like it's to to have those

445
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,360
like that type of thing in place
for the morning data just for

446
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,000
that, because you might have the
off chance that, oh, there's a

447
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,680
football game this weekend.
We're going to send it out to

448
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,080
everyone who saw watched a
football video last week.

449
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,520
Doesn't matter if you like it or
not or Australian idols.

450
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,880
That's an I'll reference.
But you know, I just got a a

451
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,880
final on this weekend.
But these people watch, watch

452
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,760
the videos for that.
So we'll send them off the the

453
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,240
idea that your betting market on
this this weekend you can bet on

454
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,160
and try and get get you get you
that way.

455
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,840
So they're not just targeting
people who like horse racing or

456
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,120
or poking machines, They're
targeting any amount of that

457
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,120
demographic who might have an
inkling they might want to bet

458
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,520
on something.
And and that is also one of the,

459
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,360
I guess the polar opposites of
this issue.

460
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,080
Like I think everybody
immediately can associate

461
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,760
betting with sport.
Now it's it's just kind of hand

462
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,320
in hand.
You put on any sport on TV or

463
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:15,880
even you go to the event, like
everything is just bet, bet,

464
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,000
bet.
I've used these apps a couple of

465
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,680
times.
I've put on a few bets in my

466
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,880
life.
I'm hopeless.

467
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,040
I never win.
But, you know, I'm lucky enough

468
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,360
that I kind of just give myself
that little bit of money and go,

469
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,080
OK, if, if I win, cool.
If I don't, you know, my, my

470
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,040
thing is I play Powerball, you
know, every now and again just

471
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,800
to, because I dream, yeah, if I
win.

472
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,160
But that, that doesn't really
send me anything.

473
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,400
I play.
And they're like, hey, tonight's

474
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,040
jackpot might be, I don't know,
50 million.

475
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,120
And I'll be like, OK, whatever.
And I think you're playing that

476
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,280
and you know, you're not going
to win.

477
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,800
Someone obviously wins, but
you're exactly like to, but with

478
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,720
the sports betting and you know,
putting on Maltese and things

479
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,800
like that.
I've known people who've had an

480
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,080
issue with gambling through
online gambling in the past and

481
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,080
and phones.
I can see from speaking to them

482
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,400
that there is almost a little
bit of skill when they talk

483
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,200
about and that feels like you're
like this really smart person

484
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,200
that actually knows stuff.
So it's not pure luck.

485
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,200
There's actually some skill
there and I could see that

486
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,960
winning something like that
could I guess verify and confirm

487
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,440
that you are a bit more
intelligent.

488
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,640
But recently it feels like no
matter who you speak to, whether

489
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,600
it's them directly or they'll
know of someone who knows

490
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,640
someone that's had a problem
with with these platforms.

491
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,280
How are we going with trying to
get a handle on this stuff?

492
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,280
Or do you think that it's kind
of almost a bit of an

493
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,920
unstoppable train at this point
that is just steam rolling over

494
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,000
everything due to influence and
I guess money itself?

495
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,760
We're going OK, like we are
getting somewhere.

496
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,640
Like I think the noise that the
alliance where our workers are

497
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,240
making, people like David Perry
Cock and Kate Cheney and and

498
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,080
Monique Ryan in Parliament are
making a lot of noise about her,

499
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,040
especially David Perry Cock has
been utterly fantastic in the

500
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,720
last World 18 months.
And at all.

501
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,920
We have some really good
journalists in Australia who are

502
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,480
reporting on it quite regularly,
some really good people at the

503
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,240
Guardian and and Crocky, Danny
and Crocky and Josh and Henry

504
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:14,720
the Guardian who do a little
work on it.

505
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,280
So what we, we are, there is a
groundswell of it.

506
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,960
We, we know there is, we do a
lot of surveying at the alliance

507
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,560
that shows like the more than
3/4 of Australia, Montgomery

508
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,640
that's banned.
It's, it's, it's like nobody

509
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,200
likes them.
Nobody, nobody wants to see when

510
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,240
they're watching sport.
Nobody wants to explain to their

511
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,000
kid what a multi is when they're
six or seven years old just

512
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,480
because you're watching 40 with
your dad on the couch on a

513
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,480
Saturday.
Like we, we, we're the first

514
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,520
generation of, of Australians
who have to explain to our kids

515
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,440
what gambling is and what a
multi is and why it's a good

516
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,920
thing or why it's a bad thing.
Like nothing's going to happen

517
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,280
until we get some actual action
on the Peter Murphy's inquiry

518
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,200
and the report she put down.
That is the absolute catalyst

519
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,680
for change.
And the government know that

520
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,000
that is.
And they're trying to delay it

521
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,360
as much as possible because of
the best interest we've talked

522
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,000
about.
I think we'll get somewhere.

523
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,600
It's just extremely slow going,
but there's too much grounds for

524
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,120
all of support to have it had,
especially advertising removed.

525
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:10,640
And we're not talking about this
stuff.

526
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,000
I don't ever want to come across
like I'm being a prohibitionist

527
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,600
or other.
There is a place for gambling in

528
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,600
Australia.
I, I don't want to being

529
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,280
gambling and it's not about
being gambling and it's not

530
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,440
about being the people who enjoy
it.

531
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,440
And there's a lot of people who
go to the pub on this Saturday

532
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,560
with their mates or sit on the
couch at home and can enjoy,

533
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,000
enjoy it safely basically.
So it's not about that.

534
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,640
It's about making it safer.
And at the moment it's the same

535
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,320
as the cigarettes were in the
70s and 80s.

536
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,760
It's advertised to a point where
it's not safe and we need to

537
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,120
actually do something about it
before we get to a point where

538
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,280
we lose a whole generation of
people to gambling.

539
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,960
Totally agree.
I think that outright

540
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,680
prohibition probably isn't the
right right way to go about it,

541
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,200
but I think for me the issue is
just the pervasiveness of it.

542
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,560
And I'm sure you can download
every single app onto your phone

543
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,960
and, and have all of those
things reaching out to you.

544
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,080
Hey, do you want to put a bit on
here, a bit on here?

545
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,160
You know, I was reading
something recently about the

546
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,080
number of of teenagers not even
18 years old gambling on on the

547
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,840
way to school, which seems like
I hear it is at the state 30% of

548
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,040
12 to 17 year olds.
There's more there's more people

549
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,680
there's more people under 18 in
Australia betting then there is

550
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,800
actually actually playing
basketball at that age in

551
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,160
Australia playing soccer at that
age in Australia.

552
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,000
So we're bringing up a
generation of gambling addicts

553
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,760
at the moment is horrible and I
and I see it like I I help out

554
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,480
at at all skip with my son
sometimes when he goes down

555
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,320
there and there's kids down
there seminar 8 years old and

556
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,480
we're talking about Collingwood
are $1.80 favourites on the

557
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,360
weekend to their dads not
knowing.

558
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,160
But Oh my God, the gambling
companies have done so well with

559
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,720
their advertising that this is
the way they see sport and they

560
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,480
they go onto the app and they
see the odds are right there

561
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,960
before they see the score like
it's they can't get away from

562
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,040
it.
And this is the why it is so

563
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,680
dangerous and why the Internet
has played such a big role in

564
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,360
this because our younger
generations live on the Internet

565
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,040
now and whether that's a good
thing or a bad thing or not,

566
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,840
they see it so much.
We have never been at a point in

567
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,600
this country where it's been so
pervasive and faces disease.

568
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,400
That that's just shocking, just
hearing you say that you've got

569
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,760
kids like under 10 talking about
the odds of a win for a team.

570
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,960
I know when I was that age, I
knew of gambling as this kind of

571
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,720
abstract concept, but it's like
I, I didn't know what odds were.

572
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,040
I knew you went to a casino and
you can win money.

573
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,840
That's, that's the extent of it.
But I'm sure that that's kind of

574
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,200
a normal amount of information.
But yeah, as you said, kids that

575
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,760
young through access to the
Internet and technology and

576
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,680
whether it's their own devices
or, you know, on their parents,

577
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:41,240
just kind of seeing guest
bedding is what you do in any

578
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,440
sporting event as so normal.
It just feels like we're really,

579
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,240
really going to have a huge,
even bigger problem coming down

580
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,480
the pipeline.
But you know, that stat you said

581
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,800
as well about more, more of
these teens.

582
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,120
Again, I'm laughing.
I just I'm just in awe of how

583
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,160
awful is one of these teens are
gambling.

584
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,440
But.
God, look, one of the other

585
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,160
things that you've you've kind
of got me thinking about now was

586
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,280
in play betting.
That to me just seems so crazy

587
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,440
that you are even more caught up
in the moment that you could

588
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,640
just be smashing buttons because
you're so emotionally invested.

589
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,600
You know, like your team might
be losing.

590
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,600
You're desperate for a goal,
perhaps for your team to win,

591
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,760
but now you you're financially
invested in that goal.

592
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,400
Why would you say that that in
play betting itself has become

593
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,840
so massive and what are the
outcomes that are happening

594
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,880
because of it?
I think you're right in what

595
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,680
you're saying that it's the,
it's the, the emotional state

596
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,680
you're in when you're watching
something and you have an

597
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,320
investment in it.
So I, I think it's become so

598
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,360
popular because you can get it
on so quickly.

599
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,640
You can, you can kind of watch
the trends of a game, But you

600
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,480
know, I had a lot of issues with
that when I was gambling is I, I

601
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,960
probably thought I knew sport
better than what other people

602
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,000
did and I thought I'd had an
advantage in that way.

603
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,280
I didn't like it.
It was never that, never the

604
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,080
case, but the way my brain
worked at the time with the

605
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,480
dopamine stacks that my brain
was chasing and that it just

606
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,040
turned me into a, a zombie with
a mush for a brain really when I

607
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,720
was jamming.
So the way it's set up, you can

608
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,160
just get a bet on within 20
seconds and you, you don't even

609
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,440
know what you're doing half the
time because of what you're

610
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,040
watching and you think you're
smarter than someone else.

611
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,040
So it plays on the, the urge
mechanism in your body when you

612
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,480
have an urge to do something.
And I've learned this from, from

613
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,320
my recovery now and, and the way
I used to bet, it takes a good

614
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:26,880
10 minutes for an urge to go
away.

615
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,920
So to have in play access to
betting and have people allowed

616
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,400
who can have it in their
pockets, you can bet on it to

617
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,200
win, you bet on something to
lose.

618
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,920
You bet on the goals, you bet on
the tackle, you bet on whatever

619
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,840
it is implied when you have the
urge to do that unless you have

620
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,280
you can have change your brain
properly to not give in to that

621
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,080
urge.
You can lose money so quickly

622
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,440
and that's why it's so
dangerous.

623
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,000
You can put on 10 bets in that
in the amount of time lose $1000

624
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,600
or something.
You know before you even your

625
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,680
brain has really kind of even
registered what you are doing in

626
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,760
that state.
But when you are betting and

627
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,600
you're in an emotional state or
you with your mate and they're

628
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,320
all doing it, or you're drinking
alcohol or you're on something

629
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,760
else at the time and you've got
an urge to go and do something,

630
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,880
then you're not going to be able
to control that at all.

631
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,000
And and the gamer companies
really play on that.

632
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,680
That's why in play betting has
become so popular, especially

633
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,520
with the way you can also bet on
things to lose, like in what

634
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,640
with horse riding, be on
something to lose halfway around

635
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,040
the tracking.
I don't have to even bet for the

636
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,840
race starts.
It's it's, it's crazy the amount

637
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,480
of things you can bet on in
playing air.

638
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,520
Yeah.
And, and it seems to me that

639
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,080
that that is something that can
really only be facilitated if

640
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,320
you've got the access to doing
it right in the palm of your

641
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,880
hand at any time.
So you don't have to travel and

642
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,280
go and find the bookie or, I
don't know, go to the the tab or

643
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,280
any of that to do it.
Like it really does rely on on

644
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,160
that technology being on your
person all the time.

645
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,920
But I think one of the other
things that I'm trying to to

646
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,480
understand, like the real
picture around is how much of

647
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,680
this normalisation of gambling
being a part of every event.

648
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,080
Like if you if you can bet on
everything, then you can bet on

649
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,000
nothing.
You know what I mean?

650
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,240
It's just kind of become part of
the experience.

651
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,600
Do you think that that
normalisation is just straight

652
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,480
up making it harder for us as,
as an Australian society?

653
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,320
And I'm sure you know the same
issues happen happening in other

654
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,200
countries.
Is it just harder for us to

655
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,800
acknowledge the extent of the
problem because it is so

656
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,080
normalised?
I, I think it's, it's become so

657
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,120
normalised.
I mean, we, we have grown up in

658
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,160
Australia with a love of
betting.

659
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,960
I think like we, it, it's been
in our nature, it's been in our

660
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,240
culture for a very, very long
time to, to bet.

661
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,160
And up until the mid 2000s it
was safer to do that like it

662
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,880
was, it was probably harder to
get a bet on.

663
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,360
You had to physically, it was
destination betting for a lot of

664
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,520
people.
You had to physically go

665
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,080
somewhere to bet.
And that's what it is around the

666
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,360
world.
You don't, you see a lot of

667
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,640
countries around the world,
especially America up until

668
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,920
recently, places in Europe where
you don't have access to

669
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,880
somebody again, unless it's
actually at a cassette, you

670
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,560
know, she's got to get there.
So I, I think we've been brought

671
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,520
up in, in cultures like that in
Australia.

672
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,440
And that's what's kind of
exasperated when it did blow up

673
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,160
with the internets and and the
gambling apps it it took us to

674
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,200
this other place where it was
just so easy to do.

675
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:14,240
It's just so crazy to me that
the worst thing a player can do

676
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,720
is bet on the matches.
But you can have platforms

677
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,840
funding the leagues behind the
matches, you know, the venues.

678
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,680
So maybe it's potentially teams
as well.

679
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,720
Like it seems like just the
conflict of interest is just so

680
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,560
blatant.
It's it just seems a little bit

681
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,040
too on the nose that you
couldn't make it up.

682
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,440
But we don't have to because
it's it's just like that.

683
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,320
Is this exclusive in Australian?
Yeah, they've done really well

684
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,880
to intrinsically link a lot.
We, we, we have the, the big

685
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,640
sporting codes in Australia make
so much money off gambling.

686
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,000
So they're never, ever going to
want to stop what's in place now

687
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,040
and then this is going to be the
really hard thing to try and

688
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,080
make any change with it is that
the fact that they make like, I

689
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,800
think $230 million a year
roughly across all the companies

690
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,600
in Australia, sporting codes in
Australia make off gambling

691
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:04,720
revenue.
So like it's going to, it's

692
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,440
going to be something that's
very hard to replace.

693
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,440
And it's, and it's the, it's the
other factors as well.

694
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,680
And what they argue is they're
going to lose all their

695
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,200
advertising revenue they make
offered as well.

696
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,360
So they can't sell their rights
for as much because, you know,

697
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,800
the companies won't have the,
they can't advertise if we take

698
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,000
the laws away from.
So why it is why they, the

699
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,680
sporting codes and the lobbies
have so much power because there

700
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,040
is so much money behind it.
And and they, they, they, they

701
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,560
use scare tactics around like,
oh, we're going to take away

702
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,480
community football whether we
had of funded if we can't have

703
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,520
gambling advertised.
And it was the same scare tactic

704
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,600
that the cigarette industry used
in the 70s and 80s that this guy

705
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,680
was going to fall in when we
knew never did.

706
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,480
Yeah, look, the cigarette one is
is so interesting.

707
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,920
I can remember seeing, you know,
like these photos of cricketers,

708
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,720
you know, like Shane Warne
having a ciggy.

709
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,600
Like what's that golf guy John
Daly having a ciggy?

710
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,600
And it's like everybody smoked
and cigarette advertising daily

711
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,160
where and now it's like we're in
the year 2025.

712
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,040
There's probably not a human
alive that doesn't know how bad

713
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,880
cigarettes are.
But you know, if you, if you're

714
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,000
really into the darts, like
you're just going to keep

715
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,639
smoking darts.
And I'm sure it's the same with

716
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,679
with all of this stuff.
One thing I did want to want to

717
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:16,639
speak to you about was with
these apps being in your pocket,

718
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,719
The other thing that's always in
your pocket is obviously access

719
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,120
to your bank.
Now, Once Upon a time, you would

720
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,880
have to go to the ATM, get cash
out.

721
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,440
You could have your daily limit
put it into the pokies or onto

722
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,239
the casino table, whatever it
is.

723
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,920
But now you've got banking apps
that you can transfer thousands

724
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,199
of dollars everyday.
And I'm I'm sure you can change

725
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,840
that to make it less, but
they're in the same place as the

726
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,400
betting app.
So if you lose, you can get more

727
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,960
straight away.
Like again, this is just another

728
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,440
facilitation of technology that
allows this to be so much worse.

729
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,080
What role do you think that
banking and even payment systems

730
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,560
have to play in this?
And do they play a role?

731
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,440
Play future role like I again,
when I've gone through my

732
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,560
recovery now and kind of learnt
why I probably fell into my

733
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,400
gambling as much as I did is
because of the ease of access I

734
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,680
had to money as well at the time
with it, with the with banking

735
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,280
apps on my phone.
And when I started to recover,

736
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,200
I, I had to give part of my
recovery plan was to give my

737
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,840
access to my bank accounts over
to my partner who, who looks

738
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,680
after money to this day, because
I was addicted to gambling.

739
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,400
But I was, I was addicted to the
having the money and, and using

740
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,760
the money as well, I suppose.
And thinking there was my money,

741
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:29,920
I could do it whatever I want
with it.

742
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,840
And that became really again,
intrinsically linked between the

743
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,800
two of them.
That I, that I, if I had extra

744
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,560
money and I had access to the
money, then I would, I would

745
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,960
gamble it as no, no different to
someone who is addicted to, to

746
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,640
alcohol.
If I had wine in the fridge or

747
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,560
beer in the fridge, it didn't
matter how many other great

748
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,320
mechanisms you put in place
around it.

749
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,400
If it was there and had access
to it, you're probably going to

750
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:50,480
drink it.
And that's just the way I had

751
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,800
explained work.
So that there is a huge

752
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,600
correlation between it.
I bet lot on credit cards as

753
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,880
well.
And that, that is what I didn't

754
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,840
mention before is I have banned,
well, they are in the process of

755
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,240
banning credit card usage on, on
gambling ads, But that wasn't

756
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,920
the case up until 12 months ago.
You could gamble on your credit

757
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,400
card as much as you wanted to.
And that was something that I

758
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,960
struggled with.
Like I would pay a credit card

759
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,560
off and then use that credit
card to get to gamble again with

760
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,080
basically.
So I was just, you know, in a

761
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,360
cycle of it, then I would get
another credit card or something

762
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:20,800
along those lines.
So we ended up with a couple of

763
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,800
credit cards just solely that I
used to gamble with never told

764
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,920
anyone about it.
So, and having to lie about that

765
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,960
type of stuff and lying about
your money and where your money

766
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,520
in your bank was with this just
major mental health, 10 times

767
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,640
worse as well when you're trying
to deal with something like an

768
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,040
addiction.
So that they, they have.

769
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,320
And yeah, like it, it's there's
so many offshoots of that you

770
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,680
could talk about with it.
And again, the way it's how easy

771
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,080
it is to link your bedding
account to your, to your debit

772
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,400
card to your savings account,
depositing this straight away.

773
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,400
And, but like they don't, they
never ask you about your

774
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:54,880
deposits.
I always ask you about your

775
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,920
withdrawals, how much you want
to take out and whether you want

776
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,480
to do this.
And, and you can still, and you

777
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,440
can cancel withdrawal.
You can't cancel a deposit.

778
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,200
Once it's in there they go.
No, you deposit it.

779
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,800
You need to bet it now before
you get this out.

780
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,760
Like many times I'd win money on
a Saturday and maybe win daily

781
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,480
fairly well on a Saturday and
then withdraw it.

782
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,560
And they would leave the
withdrawal there for a day or

783
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,600
two days before they process it.
Or even on a Tuesday or

784
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,440
Wednesday, leave it there and
give you an option to cancel

785
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,160
your withdrawal.
But I would never do that with

786
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,160
with my deposit into your
account.

787
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,720
So the stream of money you have
going into an app just because

788
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:26,040
it's linked to your bank account
is.

789
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,800
Yeah.
Again, it's had a huge effect on

790
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,920
the way people gamble.
That, that again makes total

791
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,840
sense that they they'd like to
take your money, but they don't

792
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,480
give it back in any form.
But you said something about

793
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,360
kind of hiding what was going
on.

794
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,760
And I guess that leads me to
another thought that the

795
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,640
Internet and technology enables
in that sense is you don't need

796
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,320
to interact socially with
anybody to be doing these

797
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,280
things.
So like, it's a lot easier for

798
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,680
people to potentially hide their
problem or or their shame

799
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,000
through the the the hiding that
can be done in an online space.

800
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,600
But does that play a part in
people not seeking help if they

801
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,120
really should?
Oh for sure, like I I felt

802
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,200
ashamed for 10 years.
I felt like I was just a shit

803
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,680
person.
I just felt lost and alone

804
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,800
because you were you can sit in
your bedroom and you can lose.

805
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,520
I can sit on the I was sitting
on the couch next to my partner

806
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:18,840
bedding.
She didn't know what I was doing

807
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,040
and I was sitting there losing
their money and, and having and

808
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,640
then trying to hide that the
whole time and trying to lie

809
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,120
about it and, and just, yeah, it
it, it almost ruined me.

810
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,560
And I said to the point where I
was just an utterly bright in

811
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,320
person by the end of it.
And then I'd go online and just

812
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,520
getting stupid arguments and
tell people they're idiots

813
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,320
online about things I'd never
knew about because I always

814
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,920
wanted to make people feel as
bad as I was feeling in myself.

815
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,400
And it's, it's not like an any
other addiction where you can

816
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,480
physically see a change in
someone like with alcohol and

817
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,000
with any type of drug.
We see that physical change in

818
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,760
some way.
It's so easy to hide it inside

819
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,680
here with a gambling addiction
and I think there's still that

820
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,200
stigma around that the people
don't really see it sometimes as

821
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,440
a normal, as an addiction like
and drug or alcohol 1 when it

822
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,680
works exactly the same way and
it it ruins your life in exactly

823
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,920
the same way.
No, that's, that's a great point

824
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,880
there.
And I think that that comes back

825
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,960
to what I can imagine is just
the normalisation of it.

826
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,640
And I I just can't understand
how we're all so blase about it.

827
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,800
We know it's in an online
industry and we know that the

828
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,880
the online space is completely
borderless.

829
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,840
Like is it even possible for
Australia to regulate the online

830
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,840
gambling space?
We say bettors and gamblers

831
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,080
having access to the the world.
How does that work?

832
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,000
I, I think having something
better than having nothing I

833
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,920
like, I think that's the point
with it all.

834
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,080
Like at the moment we don't have
anything to help regulate it at

835
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,680
all.
So I think a national regulator

836
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,080
would at least an, an
independent national regulator

837
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,920
would at least make the, the
companies more accountable for

838
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,600
what they're doing to people in
the way they are targeting

839
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,440
people and things along those
lines and actually have

840
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,880
penalties in place that meant
something to actually stop.

841
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,360
These companies always have them
thinking twice about the way

842
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,240
they're operating.
So I, I think it'll work in that

843
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,160
sense.
It's, it's never going to be a

844
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,800
perfect world.
Like we're never going to have a

845
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,640
perfect system for it.
There's always going to be

846
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,880
companies popping up.
And we've seen the way the

847
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,800
internet's evolved in the last
20 years, in 20 years time, who

848
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,920
knows what that what shape
that's going to take in terms of

849
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,120
gambling on the online.
But yeah, there's never going to

850
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,440
be an absolute Nirvana with it
all other side.

851
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:24,440
But no, we just.
We just.

852
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,440
To take it more seriously, it's
got to be taken more seriously.

853
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,240
We've got to have better things
in place we're doing now.

854
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:32,960
And yeah, we, we just can't
continue to, to have it in

855
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,960
children and young adults and
young men, young women's faces

856
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,600
as much as we do now and and not
do anything about it.

857
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,240
With all of that in mind, like
we look at the entire current

858
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:45,680
digitised gambling and betting
landscape that we've been

859
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,120
talking about, One of the things
that there's obviously a little

860
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,080
bit of an effort being made with
those kind of warnings that they

861
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,680
whack on at the end of the
adverts and things like that.

862
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,440
Obviously they're pushing this
concept of responsible gambling.

863
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,920
Are they a genuine effort or is
it just doing enough to get the

864
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,840
what regulators theories off off
their case?

865
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,480
They, I, I think they're
insanely stupid.

866
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,200
They, they don't work that
they're being proven not to

867
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,680
work.
They are they're a slap in the

868
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,320
fat.
Anybody who's got a problem with

869
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,000
gambling knows that they should
be rebending responsibly.

870
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,840
There's no point putting those
things on at the end of an ad.

871
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,640
Like people who don't have a
problem see those those catch

872
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,040
phrase at the end and think
they're insanely stupid as well.

873
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,880
Like I don't have a problem.
Why do I need a bit response

874
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,240
with it?
But they don't work.

875
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,200
They've been told them to, to
put them in place by the federal

876
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,840
government who because they want
to be saying to be doing

877
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,800
something when it's like, I
can't tell you how angry it

878
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,520
makes me just just see them.
People say they're saying I'll

879
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,240
bet responsibly when they, they
just had a whole ad that's been

880
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:47,840
on 30 sectors beforehand about
how not to bet responsibly.

881
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,160
And at the end of it and then
trying to make someone feel bad

882
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,160
about it just at the end of it.
It makes no sense whatsoever.

883
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,920
Just if we, if we have to have
something at the end of an ad

884
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,520
telling to bet responsibly, it's
because the gambling company,

885
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,320
the, the betting they're just
showing it isn't responsible in

886
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,280
the way they're showing it,
especially with things like

887
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,760
multis and raisons.
I know we mentioned multis

888
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,800
before.
Like multis are advertised by

889
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,480
gambling companies because they
make so much profit on it,

890
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,240
because nearly everyone who puts
the multi on will lose their

891
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:14,880
multi.
Like multis are the hardest

892
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,080
things that hit in the world.
And that's the the exact reason

893
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,040
they advertise them so much
because they make so much money

894
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,040
off it.
So why why we allowed to

895
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,640
advertise?
And if it's not responsible to

896
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,240
do so, will we allow cigarette
advertising on TV?

897
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:28,520
If you put a bit, if you sort of
smoke responsibly.

898
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,960
Yeah, exactly.
On the end of it, we, we, we, we

899
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,320
know the damage it does.
We know the damage gambling

900
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,120
does.
But for this instance related on

901
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,560
TV and singer advertising, we
took it off because we knew the

902
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,720
damage to it.
So it doesn't make any sense at

903
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:40,720
all.
No.

904
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:42,760
Do you think, do you think it's
a case that we're still kind of

905
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,800
in the denial stage or all of
that's well known and

906
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,920
established now and we're just
dragging our feet a little bit?

907
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,120
I don't think we're in it.
I think everybody knows the

908
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,320
damage it's doing.
I, I, I genuinely think it's

909
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,760
that what happens behind the
scenes in, in Denver that we

910
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,800
don't see, which is why we
haven't got to a point where

911
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,040
anything's been done.
As I mentioned again earlier,

912
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,240
we, the amount of surveys that
we've done at the alliance that

913
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:06,040
showed that 3/4 of Australia
don't want, they want regulation

914
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,520
in place and they want a safer
industry and they want the ads

915
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,640
banned like this.
The we're not in denial about

916
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:12,760
it.
We know it's an issue.

917
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,520
We, we, we say it's an issue
every day, but we have a tiny

918
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,760
percentage of Australians who
lobby for it and, and they're

919
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,160
the ones being listened to and
not everybody else.

920
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,640
People like myself who have to
fight every day to try and get a

921
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,000
10 minute meeting with, with
anyone who wants to listen to

922
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,160
us.
But just because we don't have

923
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,640
the money to pay for the access,
we don't get to tell our

924
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,320
stories.
And yeah, like it's, it's just

925
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,960
that this small insular grouping
camera, we're just stopping

926
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,560
everything happening in
Australia at the moment.

927
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:41,920
Yeah.
And I think that that's that's

928
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,880
just the most tragic aspect of
it.

929
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,200
You know when you boil it down
there, it's cash for access, but

930
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,400
I don't think you could really
call it that with any kind of

931
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:50,560
we'll call.
It that now we've got that.

932
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,600
Yeah, OK.
We'll call it that cash for

933
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,520
access.
But just just on that then like

934
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,040
what, what kind of regulations
do you hope can get through or

935
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,760
what do you think would really
help to address this situation

936
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,680
and kind of help us turn a
corner a little bit?

937
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,640
The the advertising has to go
that that is the absolute number

938
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,160
one.
It's been any time of inquiry

939
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,760
that's been done, and I'll keep
mentioning that the Murphy

940
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,480
inquiry and there anyone who
hasn't read that, it is worth

941
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,560
going to read, read the stories
about the people who have been

942
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,920
harmed by this industry and then
read the recommendations that

943
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,920
Peter put out.
And Peter did so much work.

944
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,760
She worked on this report up
until she was on her deathbed.

945
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,040
She passed away from cancer a
few weeks after this report came

946
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,560
down.
She knew that how damaging this

947
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,400
industry was.
So she worked so hard on this

948
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,520
report and it had bipartisan
support across the parliament as

949
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:39,640
well.
Like it wasn't just Labour

950
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,960
people what Peter was, it was
Liberals and Greens and

951
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,440
Nationals and Independence are
on this, on this inquiry.

952
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,080
So a ban of gambling advertising
staggered across three years to

953
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,600
so it doesn't affect everyone at
once is the absolute number one

954
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,680
goal.
And it would have helped people.

955
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,360
I can't tell you the amount of
people that come to me and I get

956
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,440
dozens of people awakening me up
on socials, telling me I've got

957
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,200
an issue.
Mark, I don't know what to do.

958
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,360
Can you help me?
I feel trapped.

959
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,880
I can't walk the dog without
seeing ads on billboards.

960
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,520
I can't watch the news with my
family.

961
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,840
I can't read the newspaper on
the weekend and do the crossword

962
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,760
without seeing it.
Yeah, we had like, we need to

963
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,960
remove that from society and
that would make a huge

964
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,960
difference.
The national regulator would

965
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,400
make a huge difference as well.
And pulling back the amount of

966
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,920
inducements and the amount of
things along those lines that

967
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,000
the companies can offer people
to continue to bet.

968
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,040
We wouldn't allow people to walk
down the street and offer drugs

969
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,280
to people as a bonus.
So because because they're a

970
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,080
good customer, they wouldn't
will now cigarette companies to

971
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,360
go and offer cigarettes near
school grounds to people because

972
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,520
their their parents were betting
with an account as well.

973
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,160
Things on those lines like
sorry, smoking with a smoking

974
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,840
account or something like that.
So having something in place

975
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,160
that continually allows people
to be have to bet longer and

976
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,680
what can that inducements do?
They need to be removed as well.

977
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,400
So they're the three main things
and they're all in the Murphy

978
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,720
report and sitting on the, on
the government's desk at the

979
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,360
moment.
But we are more than two years

980
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,880
now since that's been put down.
And I know because I gave

981
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,040
evidence inquiries and I know
how long it's been.

982
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,880
So it's, it's an, I think it's a
quite a few easy things you can

983
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,360
put in place without it and it
wouldn't kill the industry

984
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,240
either.
So it would still be there, able

985
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:12,280
to go and enjoy it safely if
those things were put in place.

986
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,600
Yeah, right.
So beyond a bit more movement on

987
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,440
the Murphy report, what else
gives you hope that some real

988
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,160
positive change will be or can
be made into the future around

989
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,200
this issue?
I think it's becoming there's

990
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,480
there's more people like Nate
wanted to talk about and making

991
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,760
normalising talking about gammon
addictions in society.

992
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,200
I think it's becoming a bit
easier to do.

993
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,400
It was really hard a few years
ago when it was nobody really

994
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,680
wanted to talk about it.
I couldn't get on anywhere to

995
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,840
talk about it.
But like the last 12 to 18

996
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,040
months has been a grounds full
of support.

997
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,560
So I think if you have an issue,
if you have an issue with the

998
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,200
way it is, I think more people
are actually going to the MPs,

999
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,000
local MPs and talking about it
there.

1000
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,960
People are removing gambling
from from local sporting clubs

1001
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,000
and trying to move away from
those type of things where you

1002
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,680
have partners clubs or you have
pokies venge responsive like

1003
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,520
football clubs.
Things on little little things

1004
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,080
like that have are really
starting to happen more.

1005
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,560
And we see that the alliance we
we work a lot with local

1006
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,560
communities around how they can
move away from gambling in in

1007
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,800
their communities and and and
and have different avenues to

1008
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,480
make money without having to
rely on gambling revenues.

1009
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,280
So there's, there's lots of
little things like that and I

1010
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,040
think, but the more and more
that happens, it's just going to

1011
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,120
make it the ground sword's going
to become bigger and bigger,

1012
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,240
hopefully where, where
governments can't ignore it

1013
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:29,880
anymore the way they are and
they, they'll hopefully have to

1014
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,120
do something about it.
So it, it's, it's little

1015
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,400
incremental games.
We, we, we do see across the

1016
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,440
board, but unfortunately it
probably will stay still take a

1017
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,400
while.
And I hope it just doesn't

1018
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,320
really, like I said, ruin a
generation of people because we,

1019
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,720
we, we, we have to go a long way
around.

1020
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:48,600
So they're actually having a a
nice straight highway to go down

1021
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,200
with it all.
No, absolutely.

1022
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,640
And you, you just touched on
something there I'd love for us

1023
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,400
to, to finish on, which is
obviously the positive work that

1024
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,200
you're doing at the Alliance.
So can you just tell us a little

1025
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,640
bit about some of the things
that the Alliance is doing in

1026
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,040
case anybody hears this and they
they might be looking for for a

1027
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,560
little bit of assistance?
Yeah, so, so check it out with

1028
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:07,960
the Alliance for Gambling
reforming.

1029
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,760
Top that into Google.
It's the first thing that comes

1030
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,160
up their website.
We, we do a lot of work trying

1031
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,600
to to lobby.
We, we, we do a lot of work in

1032
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,960
terms of trying to speak to
people and, and getting them to

1033
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,040
understand the damages that this
industry does to people.

1034
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,800
We have people like Tim
Cottiello who's a national

1035
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,960
treasure, who's our chief
advocate, who the way he speaks

1036
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,960
about it is really good to
listen to.

1037
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,760
We have plenty of interviews on
there with him, but we have

1038
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,800
petitions that are going on the
website in terms if you want, if

1039
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,240
you are feeling strongly about
the gambling, have a device

1040
00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:38,640
inside of things that I am.
We have petitions you can sign

1041
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,640
which we will present to the
Parliament.

1042
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,960
We have about 37,000 signatures
on there at the moment to show

1043
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,400
there is this huge groundswell
support to remove it.

1044
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,360
If you are having issues with
your gambling, we have links

1045
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,280
there which you can read about
the ways some people have got

1046
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,960
pass the gambling.
We have a Voices of live

1047
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,800
experience programme, which on
the part of where we have people

1048
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,600
who want to advocate for change
like I do, we would have gone

1049
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,760
through gambling addictions.
You can come and join some of

1050
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,360
our sessions around that if
you'd like and thank the people

1051
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,320
like myself and plenty of other
people who have been through

1052
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,200
addiction and we work together
and, and what we can do to

1053
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,480
advocate for change.
And there's lots of other

1054
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,240
articles and things along
there's to try and open up chats

1055
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,480
with your own family and your
own friendship groups about

1056
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,240
gambling.
And especially if you're worried

1057
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:22,280
about young people in your
family and our gambling.

1058
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,440
I mean, there's plenty of stats
and statistics on there to show

1059
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,280
them the damage that you can do
to yourself and the damage that

1060
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,400
the industry does.
So they can kind of have at

1061
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,480
least a better idea of what's
going on and and why they should

1062
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,040
probably think again about
gambling at a young age as well.

1063
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,240
So it's probably other things I
want for this evening at the

1064
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,440
home in this world, but there's
there's.

1065
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,720
No, look, thanks so much for
your your time today, Mark.

1066
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:47,920
Obviously sharing your
experience and your knowledge

1067
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:52,840
around what is a very serious
issue completely exacerbated by

1068
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,040
the Internet and and technology.
What have you got coming up and

1069
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,200
where can people more
importantly follow what you're

1070
00:49:58,200 --> 00:49:59,040
up to?
Yep.

1071
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,920
So Mark Kempstead, if you just
put my name into any of the any

1072
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,920
of your social media platforms,
I'm on there and I always leave

1073
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,920
my channels open.
So if you want to reach out and

1074
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,480
have a chat to me about if
you're, if you are struggling

1075
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,640
with a gambling addiction or
you, so you've got someone in

1076
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,800
your life struggling, feel free
to reach out and I'll try and

1077
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:14,960
help out.
I'll send you in the right

1078
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,880
directions.
And I've got a few other

1079
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,880
possible projects coming out in,
in the next few weeks on in

1080
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,440
radio and TV.
So you're probably, yeah, if you

1081
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,960
type my name into, to Google as
well, you'll see that I can't

1082
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,880
100% talk about that at the
moment, but there's a few things

1083
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:30,800
coming up in the next few weeks
as well.

1084
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,520
But yeah, look, I, I, I just, I
will try and do as much advocacy

1085
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,520
work as I possibly can and, and
try and keep this, this issue at

1086
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,280
the forefront of people's minds,
especially in our federal

1087
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,000
government at the moment.
Awesome, Mark.

1088
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,600
Thank you again so much.
Now Anytime guys, appreciate it

1089
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,000
mate.
For more info on what we've

1090
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,800
discussed today, check out the
show notes.

1091
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,320
If you enjoyed this one, you can
subscribe to Ruined by the

1092
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,920
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1093
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,280
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1094
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,320
I'm Gareth King, see you next
time.