Attention Spans: how the internet is rewiring our focus – Dr Patrick Clarke

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Welcome to Ruined by the
Internet.

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I'm Gareth King.
Today we're asking, has the

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Internet ruined our attention
spans thanks to its relentless

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stream of information, endless
notifications, an explosion of

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rapid fire, short form content?
Are we losing our capacity for

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sustained focus and deep
concentration?

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To help us get a better
perspective, we're joined by

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Doctor Patrick Clark, a clinical
psychologist and associate

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professor at Curtin University.
Patrick, thank you so much for

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joining us and welcome to the
show.

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Great pleasure.
Thanks for having me.

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Before we begin, can you tell us
a bit about the work that you do

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and the journey that led you to
this area of expertise?

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Yeah, So I guess I'm
comparatively new to to this

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area, although I've got quite a
history and a background working

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in the sort of attention space.
So a lot of the work I did

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through my my PhD and some of
the sort of more clinically

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applied work I've done in
psychology has been about

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understanding the way in which
people allocate their attention

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to things that might signal
potential danger in the

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environment or be the source of
anxiety.

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And how the way attention can be
just distributed amongst these

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things.
Or how, you know, things that

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seem to just pop out of the
background for some people, you

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know, more, more threatening
faces or all the rest of it

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might shape people's emotional
experiences.

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And it was kind of through this
and through some studies that we

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were running with where we were
doing little, little training

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tasks, trying to train attention
towards or away from different

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types of content that I
eventually started thinking

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about, Well, if we're doing
these little tasks that might

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take 10 or 15 minutes and hoping
to see changes in the way people

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are processing information sort
of around that time.

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We're like, we're spending
increasingly large amounts of

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time on our digital devices, you
know, two to three hours a day.

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And thinking that, you know,
the, the, the feedback loops

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that might be happening between
humans and their devices could

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be having some pretty hefty
effects potentially on both, you

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know, their patents of cognition
and the way they process the

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world, but also, you know, their
emotional experiences as well.

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And I started to get very
interested in it from there and

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kind of came in at, at an
interesting and kind of critical

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point, I think where people were
just starting to realise that a

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lot of the measures that they
were using in this research,

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which was mostly relying on
people estimating how much they

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were using, might not be kind of
a gold standard way to be doing

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it.
And I guess I was sort of of a

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similar mind thinking we need to
be really rigorous in how we're

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sort of assessing some of these
things.

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And and it's sort of, yeah,
escalated from there.

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You know, I understand there's
been quite a lot of research

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around different types of
attention, the impact over time,

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But before we get into that, can
you briefly explain what the

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different types of attention
are?

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Yeah, it's really interesting
because we talk about attention

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like it's a single thing, but
you know, attention can you

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know, more broadly be
operationalized as a set of

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processes.
So you know, I guess typically

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when we're thinking about
attention, it's about what

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maintains our focus on a single
thing or a or a subset of

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things.
But there's a few kind of sub

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processes that are involved in
that.

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And you know, perhaps one of the
most critical ones is this

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process is called inhibition or
inhibitory control.

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And you know, it's sort of
relates to this other very broad

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idea about, you know, we don't
so much have free will as free

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won't.
You know, the, the process of

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inhibiting all this irrelevant
information that's bombarding

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our senses in the environment at
any given point in time is so

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critical to us to actually be
able to retain focus on

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something.
So there's this sort of, you

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know, inhibition process which
allows us to retain focus on

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something for sustained periods
of time.

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But then there's other processes
like switching, being able to

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jump between alternative bits of
information that might be either

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in different parts of the world,
but also maybe information that

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might be in the same part of the
world.

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I can be looking at a piece of
text and I can be looking at the

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colour of that text or the font
of that text and different sorts

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of properties.
So these sorts of attentional

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switches that might sort of
happen.

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And then there's sort of this,
you know, higher level

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processes.
You've probably heard a bit

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about working memory and the
like that are kind of, you know,

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use some of these attentional
processes, but they're more

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about how much information you
can hold in mind and how you can

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manipulate some of those
processes as well.

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So those are kind of the some of
the broad basic, you know,

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processes.
Yeah, that that contribute to

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our experience of attention and
attention focus, I guess.

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This that's interesting around
the the free will versus free

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won't point, I guess, I guess in
the in the context of the free

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won't when you're trying to shut
everything out, what do we kind

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of Max out at that we can block
out or be taking in at any given

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moment before we start losing
that that focus?

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Yeah, it's really interesting.
I find a really interesting

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concept related to that.
It's just this idea of load.

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There's only so much sensory
load we can carry before our

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abilities start to diminish in
some areas.

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Now, there's some kind of little
exceptions sometimes that those

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things were like a small amount
of background distraction or,

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you know, there's some evidence
suggesting that when there's

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some white noise in the
background, people show some

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slight improvement in these
sorts of things.

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But generally speaking, as we
take in more stimulus from our

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environments, our ability to
kind of retain focus on on one

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specific given task starts to
diminish.

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Head up displays on cars was a
great real world example of

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them.
I think they do have them now,

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but the displays they have are
really, really minimal.

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And I think in the past, they
had these really elaborate head

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up displays and, you know, the
stats were showing that people

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who were driving those cars were
having accidents at much higher

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rates.
So it does tend to tax our

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attention, some of that sort of
extraneous information in our,

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in our worlds.
But within that though, we are,

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you know, really, really good at
sort of information filtering as

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well.
And, and a lot of the things

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that we kind of take for, for
granted, you know, at any given

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moment in when things are
reasonably sort of quiet, we're

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ignoring a whole bunch of
sensations that are going on in

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our body and our clothing and
all these sorts of things.

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And, you know, even cocktail
party effects when there's all

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these different conversations
going on around you that might

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be a similar volume or
different.

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And you can selectively focusing
on one specific conversation.

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It's a, you know, really
incredible ability, that kind of

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information filtering.
Yeah.

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That's very, very interesting to
know, especially around just

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that point you mentioned too
around white noise Is, is there

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anything that kind of supports
listening to that in the

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background that will help you
shut out everything else to

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focus on the the one thing
that's in front of you?

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Yeah.
And again, it's a kind of a, a

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bit of a threshold thing.
So I think at a small and low

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level and there's different kind
of theories about why that might

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be the case.
But almost like it, you know,

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there's part of there's this
sort of distinction between top

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down attention that's, you know,
using our executive systems.

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This is what I want to do at
this moment in time.

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Now if that was all that was
going on and you know, we're

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hunting in the African Savannah
or, you know, focused on one

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specific task and then something
really, really dangerous happens

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or there's something that needs
us to shift our attention.

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If all that was governing what
we're doing is this sort of top

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down focus, then we would be in
all sorts of strife because we

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need to be able to disengage
from those tasks.

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So on the flip side of this is
this, this bottom up stimulus

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driven stuff.
So sudden onset things, hearing

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our name in the background
really, you know, sudden sorts

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sort of things will grab our
attention.

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So kind of the, the idea with
having that little bit of

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background stuff happening is
that it may be reduces our

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scanning our backgrounds a
little bit.

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And so that we're actually more
likely to be immersed in that

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top down, remaining focused
rather than picking up little

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bits of background distractions
that kind of pull us away.

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Now with that said, the higher
you know, the more stimulus

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we're adding and the more
information that is is coming

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into it, the more likely we
might be then to be sort of

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pulled play to that a bit more.
Right.

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Is that, is that why you can
listen to kind of soft

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background, whether it's the
sound of an ocean or the

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rainforest, you know, when
you're trying to go to sleep, is

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that to kind of help you shut
everything out and then get to

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sleep?
Yeah, look, and that it can vary

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a lot from different people.
I know some people who are like,

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no, I just need it completely
quiet and sometimes I, you know,

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earplugs in and all the rest of
it.

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But other people, it just gives
them that little, you know, if

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they're all up in their head and
chewing over the day's events

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or, or worrying, then it just
gives them that little bit of

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external focus.
But you know, they're, they're

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not listening to some soothing
death metal as they're going on.

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So it'll be a bit too
stimulating.

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How that would work?
Low level background stuff can

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be helpful and, you know, other
people, you know, saying they

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listen to music a little bit
when they're studying, but also

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some people say that very
specific types of music that

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they can listen to when they're
studying.

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Like I'm, I do a lot of
obviously, you know, reading and

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writing and I find I can just do
instrumental stuff, but as soon

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as I'm listening to stuff with
many lyrics, it starts to

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interfere with, yeah, the other
tasks.

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Yeah, to be honest, I find that
for myself, you know, I can

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listen to instrumental of almost
any type of music and still keep

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the focus on the task.
But yeah, once the lyrics are

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there, it's definitely way more
engaging.

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All right, let's let's get back
around to the kind of Internet

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and impact on attention span.
So what what exactly does

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attention span mean in the
context of the digital age?

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Has the meaning evolved as the
technology has and and how is it

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measured?
Yeah.

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So it's interesting and I think
a really something sort of comes

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through a lot once we start
diving into some of the research

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on this is the kind of this
interesting distinction between

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what what we tend to do are kind
of behavioural tendencies,

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right?
And when when it comes to

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attention span, I think the way
that's often operationalized

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popularly is how much we tend to
sustain our focus without

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becoming distracted by something
else.

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You know, just how much we tend
to focus on one piece of

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information before we scroll on,
how much we spend on a

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particular news article before
we've got enough information, we

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skip to something else.
Often that's assessed a bit

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differently within the context
of, you know, cognitive

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assessment tasks where we are
really assessing, all right, how

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long can someone sustain focus
and still be continuing to pick

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up bits of information that are
thrown at them within the

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context of of, yeah, some sort
of assessment task or similar.

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But I think broadly it's that
kind of what's the duration that

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people are sustaining focus on
something for is probably, you

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know that general working
definition of it.

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Yeah.
OK.

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So I guess it's it's not really
anyone kind of defined measure.

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You know, obviously if you want
to try and focus on something

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that's 5 seconds long, that's a
lot easier than, you know,

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something that's that's half an
hour.

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OK, let's go back to that
research that we touched on.

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What's it been showing over time
in this context?

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In terms of research on
attention.

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Yeah, and the impact of the
digital world.

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Yeah, absolutely.
So I think as many people would

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know, there's the research on
attention spans as it pertains

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to how much time people are
spending on individual bits of

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information with within online
forums, whether that be social

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media or, or sort of other
formats has gradually reduced

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over time.
So we are, you know, most of

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these sort of behavioural
measures are suggesting that the

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amount of time that we're sort
of attending to or focusing on

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that sort of information has has
reduced a bit.

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Now the I guess there's been all
sorts of, you know, concerns

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about flow on effects for
attention and learning and and

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there is this real subjective
sense, I think from from a lot

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of people will volunteer at
that.

236
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,560
You know, I just, I can't retain
focus for longer periods of time

237
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and this is an ability that's
being diminished.

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The really interesting thing is,
is that there is just no

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evidence that the abilities
themselves have diminished.

240
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If you sit someone down in a
room, you give them one of

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these, you know, cognitive tasks
that have been used over

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00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,440
decades.
There has just been no evidence

243
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,000
of any decline.
Generation on generation.

244
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,120
These abilities are good and
they tend to be either, you

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00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,200
know, sustained or slightly
better than they were.

246
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,880
So it's interesting in in the
sense that what we are actually

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00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,160
doing behaviourally is, you
know, occurring over shorter

248
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,720
durations.
But when, you know, we have the

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the proverbial gun to our heads
or, or we're in a situation

250
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,680
where it's like just do this
thing, we can actually call on

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00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:41,040
that ability, you know, without
too much difficulty.

252
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,760
Yeah, right.
So I guess then it just kind of

253
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,040
comes down to several factors,
one of which would be kind of

254
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,040
interest and engagement with
whatever's in front of you.

255
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,000
But how long does it take for I
guess the brain, as you said,

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00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,440
you know, we're, we're driven by
shorter and shorter types of

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content.
How, how long does it take for

258
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,320
us to be able to go, okay, I'm
going to focus on something long

259
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,720
form now and be fine and then
something short for is there any

260
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kind of movement within the
ability over time?

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00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,920
Look, I think 100% and it's one
of those general kind of truisms

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00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,000
a bit while we've got this kind
of base level of ability, right.

263
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,720
And when we think about things
like working memory or this, you

264
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,120
know, inhibitory control ability
or anything else like that,

265
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,520
these things seem to stay pretty
intact across the lifetime.

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00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,040
You know, they're not sort of
changed or, or diminished, but

267
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we tend to get better at what we
practise in terms of, you know,

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00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,520
habitual, you know, behavioural
sort of thing.

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So when we practise switching
between lots of different, you

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00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,040
know, fast paced things, as you
know, is often the case in the

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00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,800
demands that are put on us from
work and all the rest of it.

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00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,760
We get practised at switching
from one thing to another thing

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to another thing.
And we can go from, you know,

274
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,000
detailed conversation on one
thing to another, you know,

275
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,320
quick email, firing on a
different topic and all the rest

276
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:03,640
of it.
And we, and we're very practised

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00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,840
at that, but I think as a lot of
people report then when it comes

278
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,120
time to write, here's this
slightly more onerous thing that

279
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,600
requires me to focus on this
kind of thing and I need to push

280
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,520
myself through it a little bit.
They experience more challenging

281
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,400
difficulty to that.
And, and my suspicion is that

282
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,560
that's partly because we are
practising a lot of switching

283
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,880
between lots of sort of small
bits of information and perhaps

284
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,320
also becoming accustomed to
getting little bits of

285
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,480
information really, really
quickly out of things at sort of

286
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,800
shorter and shorter duration.
So that yeah, it feels harder to

287
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,800
do these other things.
I guess, I guess the connection

288
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,960
I'm trying to draw on on that
then it's a lot of people say

289
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,280
that they can focus and get a
lot more done in say a working

290
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,760
from home kind of environment
because they don't have all

291
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,840
those distractions when they're
in the office.

292
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,360
So say you're you're trying to
sit at your desk in an office or

293
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,320
wherever you work and you've got
people coming up to you

294
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,160
interrupting you, you've got
emails flying around, you know

295
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,160
all of that thing.
Is there any research or

296
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,560
evidence into when you say stop
your focus, talk to somebody and

297
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,240
then try and get back into
something?

298
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,960
Is there any lag on on how long
that takes?

299
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,400
Oh, definitely, yeah.
And borne out by a lot of

300
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,000
research.
So even sort of switching

301
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,840
between two similar tasks, if
we're, I don't know, going from

302
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,320
one verbal task to another
verbal task, but then to a

303
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,400
visual spatial task, it'll be
more challenging switching to

304
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,640
that other.
And this is kind of like what

305
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,360
they call set shifting.
We shift from one sort of

306
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,560
intellectual set to another set.
So it's almost like, you know,

307
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,200
when we're talking about
attending to a single thing,

308
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,560
well, you know, if we're, if
we're reading an article or

309
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,920
something, obviously there's no
single thing.

310
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,200
There's many, many different
words, but it's all kind of

311
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,000
thematically gathered.
But when we switch from focusing

312
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,680
on that kind of thematically
related content to having an

313
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,360
unrelated conversation to then
trying to, OK, where was I?

314
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,280
What was I doing again?
All right, that's it.

315
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,160
There is that little bit of a
cost in in time.

316
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,800
Now with that said, there's
also, you know, amounts of time

317
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,560
over which it's actually, you
know, and you've probably heard

318
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,200
about Pomodoro techniques and
these sorts of things where it

319
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,720
can be helpful to focus for, I
don't know, 20 minutes on a task

320
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,120
and then have a brief bake and
these break and these sorts of

321
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,560
things.
Because we are, you know, very

322
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,080
time limited in sustaining that
high level of focus sometimes

323
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,160
too.
OK, can can you train that high

324
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,600
level focus or is it something
that our brain caps out at?

325
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:34,680
You can train it, but it's, it's
one of those things that I think

326
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,880
again relates to habits that we
use across many, many different

327
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,240
contexts and settings.
And when we practise that

328
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,600
switching again and again and
again, I think it does come at

329
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,840
the cost sometimes of that
ability to maintain that focus.

330
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,800
But you know, as is kind of
popularised as well, things like

331
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,320
mindfulness are probably among
those techniques where it's

332
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,200
about kind of just that
immersion in that present moment

333
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,720
and building the focus in and
around that rather than

334
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,839
switching between multiple
different things.

335
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,920
So yeah, I think absolutely it
is possible we we haven't

336
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,760
necessarily lost those abilities
permanently where we're perhaps

337
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:19,880
just not as not as practical
just or or not as inclined to be

338
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,240
using them as frequently as
perhaps we we were in the past.

339
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,440
Okay.
Can you tell us a bit about the

340
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,240
notion of brain plasticity?
And then if it is adapting to

341
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,000
whatever we're feeding it,
essentially, you know, how does

342
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,240
that evolve?
And I guess has the brain

343
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,760
changed from where we would have
been 500 years ago to to now?

344
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,080
Or is it a very natural
biological thing?

345
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,360
Look.
Both in some ways so and, and I

346
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,120
think particularly when it comes
to humans, one of the things

347
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,560
that probably sets us apart a
little bit from, you know, some

348
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,040
other other mammals and perhaps
some of our other sort of great

349
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,720
apes is the fact that we're
built with perhaps a higher

350
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,240
degree of plasticity and
learning potential.

351
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,120
You know, you see giraffe or or
a foal or something that's born

352
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,640
immediately, within an hour it's
up and it's walking and all

353
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,160
these sorts of things.
But we have these ridiculously

354
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,320
immature infants that are kind
of highly dependent on us for a

355
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,560
long period of time.
But within that, there's this

356
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:24,120
greater flexibility and capacity
to learn, you know, different

357
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:27,400
types of information.
You see this across amazingly

358
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,640
diverse different sorts of
cultural norms that we see and

359
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,120
the ways in which humans have
been able to adapt to incredibly

360
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,640
different conditions all across
the planet, which is what been

361
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,880
one of the reasons that we're
sort of, you know, been so

362
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,160
successful in that regard.
But there is some pretty

363
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,560
fundamental neural architecture
that we're operating on.

364
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,800
You know, it's that classic.
We've got all this very Stone

365
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,520
Age hardware operating on this
sort of, you know, 21st century

366
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,440
software.
So there are things that we can

367
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,640
just get, like you were saying
before, overloaded with there's

368
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,960
only so much stimulus that we
can kind of, you know, take in

369
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,000
from from our environments.
And as you were sort of saying,

370
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,480
I think our environments have
changed just insanely

371
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,640
immeasurably.
You know, you referenced the

372
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,480
last, you know, 500 years.
But even beyond that, since, you

373
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,600
know, agriculture sort of got
going, you know, 10 to 12,000

374
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,880
years ago.
And the sort of

375
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,000
industrialization of the, the
world's that we're living in,

376
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,760
we've gone from these very small
communities where we were kind

377
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,520
of new and were able to predict
the behaviour of sort of

378
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,960
absolutely everyone to this, you
know, very highly industrialised

379
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,080
and centralised cities where we
interact with many, many people

380
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560
with a, with a sort of a sheer
set of rules about how that

381
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,080
goes.
But, you know, many people that

382
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,600
we're sort of unfamiliar with.
So, but but also beyond that,

383
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,680
the amount of information that
we're exposed to I think in our,

384
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:58,400
in our daily lives, someone you
know, brought from 500 years ago

385
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:02,160
would be be very overwhelmed by
the sort of environment in which

386
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,840
they found themselves, I would
imagine.

387
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,240
So I think perhaps one of those
key abilities that, you know,

388
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,640
we've perhaps been improving on
over a time and adapting that

389
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,720
considerably is that filtering
capacity.

390
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,800
Being able to very rapidly
screen what within this sea of

391
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,000
information in front of me is
the really critically important

392
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,440
information and what it what
around it is sort of perhaps a

393
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,200
bit less important.
I guess obviously the the the

394
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,240
environment of the Internet is
just kind of relentless.

395
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,400
It's constantly throwing
everything at you.

396
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,680
So I guess it's gaining that
ability to philtre out the, you

397
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,160
know, the shit and and focus on
what's good is is a helpful

398
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,960
thing.
So is that just us kind of

399
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,200
adapting to the environment?
Yeah.

400
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,240
And you could kind of see
adapting to the environment, but

401
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,760
I think that that sort of
information flow, you know,

402
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,320
remember the, you know, you, you
might nearly be old enough to

403
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,800
remember the early days of the,
of dial up Internet where you'd

404
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,720
sort of connect with me.
You'd, you'd connect to things

405
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,840
and then you'd hear the tone,
you'd go away and you'd make a

406
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,000
cup of coffee as the computer,
you know, loads up and all the

407
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,200
rest of it.
But the amount of time now that

408
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,920
it actually takes for us to get
any web page or, or any sort of

409
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,920
information is so much faster
than it used to be.

410
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,400
So we've probably got a lot more
information coming at us a lot

411
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,920
more rapidly than it was before.
And I guess we're kind of, you

412
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,280
know, employing tools both
within our own cognitive

413
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,640
systems, but even, you know, I
mean, control F these days, you

414
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,520
know, the amount of time, you
know, within this vast document.

415
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:31,760
All right.
What is the absolute critical

416
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,520
bits of information that I need
to to sort of seek out of this

417
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,760
so that I can fulfil whatever
task it is that I'm trying to do

418
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,480
and move on to the next kind of
demanding thing that's going on?

419
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,160
I guess that leads me next to
kind of the world of social

420
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,280
media.
We can safely assume that people

421
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,480
are hooked on these kind of
quick dopamine hits and seek out

422
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,000
that short form content which
gives them that.

423
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,800
So are we almost just tuning
ourselves into this tick tocky

424
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,920
type stuff at the detriment of
thinking that we can watch a 2

425
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,520
hour film or something?
Yeah, it is.

426
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,000
It is interesting that and even
I don't know, I went and just I

427
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,120
was watching an old film not
that long ago.

428
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:10,680
I think it was something like
Groundhog Day and I was like,

429
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,960
wow, editing has changed so much
even sort of in the last 20

430
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,560
years.
So and whether that's a result

431
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,960
of, you know, the kind of fast
paced information that we're

432
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,200
using to, you know, receiving so
much.

433
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,320
And it is interesting that
phenomenon because obviously

434
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,400
that potentially one of those
effects of, you know, short form

435
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,360
video content amongst a whole
bunch of other things is that,

436
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,280
you know, the tendency to dwell
for a longer duration on

437
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,760
specific bits of information and
our tendency to kind of have

438
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,720
shrunk that window.
Always that interesting thing

439
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,720
though is that ability is
intact.

440
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,920
So when we're kind of required
to do it or there is a demand on

441
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,480
us to kind of do something like
that, it doesn't seem to have

442
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,000
disappeared.
So I think it's in that middle

443
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,200
space where there's our kind of
desire or tendency to want to do

444
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,800
these things is kind of
reducing, but maybe the demands

445
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,400
of certain contexts or
situations, whether that be, you

446
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,600
know, university study or
something else saying no, no,

447
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,320
you need to sit and really, you
know, soak up this information.

448
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:19,960
Those things can collide
sometimes.

449
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,280
So, and things that I get
curious about is whether or not

450
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,280
say short form video content
exposure that people who engage

451
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,320
in higher levels of that,
whether they might need a higher

452
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,560
threshold of, you know, anxiety
or, or sort of imperative about

453
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,400
their their impending deadline
to actually get them moving with

454
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,280
it.
Because the amount of, you know,

455
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,760
requirement that the environment
has to push on them before they

456
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,600
they sort of draw on that
cognitive ability might

457
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,640
potentially be higher.
So I guess again, it's that kind

458
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,680
of the ability seems to be
there.

459
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,640
But you're absolutely right that
what we tend to do across these

460
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,320
multiple settings seems to be
kind of shrinking and there and

461
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,600
there may be consequences for
that in terms of particularly

462
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,960
when performing tasks where we
need to kind of have that slow

463
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,320
more sustained focus over a
longer period.

464
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,320
Does that manifest, you know,
any changes once we're away from

465
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,280
devices?
It's hard to say because a lot

466
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,800
of the time when we sort of seek
to assess it in, in a research

467
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,320
context, most often we do that.
We, we take people away from

468
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,800
their devices, we put them in a
room that's not particularly

469
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,160
stimulating or anything else.
And we give them these sort of

470
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,800
validated cognitive tasks where
they have one specific thing

471
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,360
that they need to be doing.
So when those sorts of contexts

472
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:41,480
are implemented, people seem to
perform fine.

473
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,040
You know, they, they are
absolutely, you know, no

474
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,240
problems in, in performing those
abilities.

475
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,280
I think it's when we are in
those sorts of contexts where we

476
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,120
have our devices and we have
those sorts of distractions and

477
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,800
you know, you might you've had
that experience or know people

478
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,120
who just almost get that that
itch where things are a little

479
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:01,640
bit boring or a little bit
quiet.

480
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,160
And, you know, they just, I'll
pick up my device and, you know,

481
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,800
engage with that a little bit.
And I think, you know, even sort

482
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:14,240
of anecdotally, things like
there are potential positives

483
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,080
associated with just sitting
with a little bit of discomfort

484
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,240
at times, I think as well.
And, you know, just small

485
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,440
anecdotal things like our
tendency to sort of

486
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,240
spontaneously engage with
strangers, you know, So I

487
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,960
remember when I, when I was a
lad, you know, before a, before

488
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,400
a tutorial or a class or
something at university where,

489
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,200
you know, there would be other
people when you stand around and

490
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,960
you were just standing around
and there was nothing else to

491
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,640
kind of do.
So you did kind of have a, have

492
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,520
a bit of a chat and engage in
these sorts of things.

493
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,800
And I think the tendency for us
to sort of switch to our devices

494
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,040
as a, as a bit of a sense of
comfort in some ways could

495
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,960
diminish some of those
opportunities at, at specific

496
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,800
points in time.
With that said, I think there is

497
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,560
the reverse side of it is that
people have very rich online

498
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,920
lives in many ways as well.
So, you know, while there's a

499
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,120
lot of scrolling and all the
rest of it that goes on, see a

500
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:13,560
lot of young people, you know,
sharing amazing artworks and

501
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,800
really creative endeavours
online and and connecting with a

502
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,200
whole bunch of other people who
are doing interesting similar

503
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,360
things.
So I think there can be those

504
00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:27,280
negative consequences, but also
perhaps the the potential things

505
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,480
that people are gaining from
some of those are overlooked at

506
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,200
times as well.
And I guess that would obviously

507
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,800
just come with being more native
to, you know, the digital world

508
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,760
and, and the possibilities are
say, you know, we, we mentioned

509
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,640
a few minutes ago around, you
know, dial up Internet, which,

510
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,680
you know, if you told someone to
say 13 years old about that now,

511
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:52,400
it would seem completely alien.
But you know, that level of, of

512
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,400
kind of slowness and, and
offering compared to what there

513
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,360
is now is, is night and day.
And that's only in what, what,

514
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:05,720
30 years Max and.
If that and it's kind of that

515
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,680
acceleration, yeah, which has.
Been incredible.

516
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,800
So, so beyond just shifts in our
attention, how does our social

517
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,280
media habits impact us?
You know, in a wider sense, I

518
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,280
guess, do we get affected
differently by engaging and

519
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,520
spending so much time on social
as opposed to anything else

520
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,560
digital?
Yeah, look, I, I think there has

521
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,680
been some very legitimate and
very large concerns around

522
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,040
social media use and some of the
mental health impacts.

523
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,520
Interestingly, I, you know,
I've, I've gradually come to the

524
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:43,240
conclusion that a lot of them
are, you know, quite overstated.

525
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:49,400
And I think it's been in part
because of the way it has been

526
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,000
measured in the past, has been
people's kind of guesses of how

527
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,320
much they're using, which
largely seems to be, you know,

528
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,960
doesn't overlap much with how
much they actually use.

529
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:03,600
So what what's been measured is
how concerned people are of

530
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,800
their social media use, which
quite logically is related to

531
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,160
how concerned and anxious they
are about the world more

532
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,440
broadly.
So you've gotten these sort of

533
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,360
correlations between people's
concern over social media use

534
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:16,920
and concern, you know, more
broadly.

535
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,480
So, and it's almost led to this
conclusion.

536
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,840
Well, social media use is
associated with anxiety and

537
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,840
depression and these other sorts
of factors.

538
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,000
Whereas when we actually measure
these things using mobile phone

539
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,200
data or other sorts of things,
these are really, really low

540
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,560
associations and often they're
just non existent.

541
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,800
We just simply don't find them
when we measure them in the

542
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,800
other ways.
Now with that said, I think what

543
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,440
does seem to come out is that it
depends.

544
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,080
So you know, as with a lot of
things, I think you can engage

545
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,400
with things in ways that are
immensely reaching.

546
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,080
You know, we can connect with
networks of people who have very

547
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,520
similar shared and overlapping
interests and and build each

548
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,440
other's capacities and share
knowledge in ways that just was

549
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,560
not possible previously.
Now the flip side of that, I

550
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:11,040
think if people have a tendency
to to worry and, and I often

551
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,320
recall as an example, remember
that at the start of COVID,

552
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,720
where ever there was so much
uncertainty out there and

553
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,440
everyone was sort of scanning
information constantly trying to

554
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,360
figure out, you know, how does
this affect?

555
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,720
How fast is it spreading?
Is this in our country?

556
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,160
You know who who's being
affected by it?

557
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,800
If someone's sort of habitually
concerned about lots of

558
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,160
different things in their world
and they have that tendency to

559
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,120
engage with social media in that
way where they're just on the

560
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,160
lookout for threatening or
negative stuff.

561
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,360
That's really has the potential
to skew their perception of the

562
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,440
world in ways because as, as we
know, these things don't just

563
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,200
randomly select information,
they feed you more of what you

564
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,280
are potentially engaging with
and interested with.

565
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,200
So I think in those sorts of
contexts and, and we know of

566
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,160
other examples of, well, so
particularly people with eating

567
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:04,280
weight and shape concerns, you
know, seeing Reels full of, you

568
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,280
know, Instagram influences with
flawless bodies probably isn't

569
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,760
going to be something that's,
yeah, going to be particularly

570
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,880
helpful.
So I, I think the consensus that

571
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,800
a lot of researchers are
beginning to move towards or be

572
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,560
it, you know, gradually is that
social media use isn't a single

573
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,600
thing necessarily.
And it really does depend on the

574
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,960
way in which it's engaged with
in terms of what its potential

575
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,920
consequences might be on mental
health.

576
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,520
I know we've touched on it a
little bit, but you know, in the

577
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,440
context of our emotions, even
our identities or how we relate

578
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,040
to each other, is there any
impact on on the way that I

579
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,360
guess we navigate the digital
world crossing over into the way

580
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,640
real life or they seem like very
different ways of being?

581
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,960
Yeah.
Look, I think there is quite a

582
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,600
bit of, you know, research in
that space and particularly

583
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,000
within the, you know, social
psychology field more that has

584
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,640
looked at the, the sort of way
in which sort of online social

585
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,640
environments potentially overlap
with, you know, our, our

586
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,720
extended social groups and, and
the like.

587
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,600
And there has been bits of
research sort of suggested that

588
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,040
we are perhaps, you know,
tending towards a larger number

589
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,480
of more casual engagements with
people online as opposed to a

590
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,600
smaller number of really high
quality intimate friendship

591
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,480
relationships.
And and I think there's sort of

592
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,880
variations in that expression as
well.

593
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:31,600
So sometimes people who have
very active online presences are

594
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,120
perhaps more likely to have a
very large number of, you know,

595
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,920
very wide social network.
But in terms of that really

596
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,800
close, high quality friendship
groups, that might be

597
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,840
comparatively lacking.
But of course, there's huge

598
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,280
variation in that, you know,
across people generally.

599
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,160
But I have seen a little bit of
research that suggests some of

600
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,080
those effects.
Yeah.

601
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,600
When it comes to attention and
how much we're kind of feeling

602
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,920
like we're losing it when we're
online and engaging with things.

603
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,760
You know, I, I was once speaking
to a young guy, I think he was

604
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,960
about 21 years old, and he was
telling me how his attention

605
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,040
span was, was shot these days.
But then he explained to me that

606
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,840
while he would be studying for
university exams, he would have

607
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,520
the notes on one screen and be
watching a movie through

608
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,800
headphones, you know, and, and
with his phone next to it.

609
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,800
And, and then that's what made
me think about this in, in the

610
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,600
1st place.
It sounds like the attention

611
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:34,160
span is maybe not sure, it's
kind of a a different way of of

612
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,000
taking in information because I
personally don't think I could

613
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,880
handle that.
But if someone that is claiming

614
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,240
that they're worried that their
attention span is getting hurt

615
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,080
through, you know, consumption
of the digital world and online

616
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,080
stuff, is there any strategies
they can employ to try and

617
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,600
reclaim their focus?
Or is it simply a matter of just

618
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,480
just paying attention to
something else?

619
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,160
I think it's a it's a
fascinating example that you

620
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,320
were sort of identifying there
that kind of, you know, on the

621
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,320
one hand is it is it in some
ways almost a superpower that

622
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,840
you've got this content kind of
going in the background, you're

623
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,560
still being able to engage, but
it's interesting.

624
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:17,560
It's almost, you know, that that
an extended example perhaps of

625
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,240
that having a light bit of music
in the background that just kind

626
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,560
of dampens our tendency to
switch away.

627
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,160
I guess if you're so used to a
really high level of stimulus

628
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,680
operating, perhaps you're almost
dampening that, that tendency to

629
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,040
switch away by by turning up the
volume on the, on the

630
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,480
information that's in the
background potentially.

631
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,680
And it's, yeah, it is, it is
really interesting that.

632
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,480
But I the thing that I'd be
curious about, and you know, I'm

633
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,080
almost sort of, you know,
thinking about the, the next

634
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,880
research project as you're
talking about it.

635
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,000
Is that the possibility?
I'd, I'd really be interested to

636
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,760
find out whether or not someone
who has that tendency would

637
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,400
perform better, say on a, on a
memory task or something when

638
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,920
they do have that background
information versus when they're

639
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,800
just in a, in a room with no
distractions and they're sort of

640
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,720
taking that, that information
in.

641
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,239
And that might be a bit more of
a kind kind of a habit type type

642
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:09,520
thing.
So it would be really

643
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,080
interesting to kind of, you
know, investigate it from that

644
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,159
perspective.
But I think to to the question

645
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:19,199
of are there things that we can
do to kind of maintain or or

646
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:23,480
retain that high level of focus
when we need it to be there?

647
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,800
Absolutely.
And it's kind of coming back to

648
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,360
that we get better at what we
practise, I guess is, is part of

649
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,520
it.
So to the, the extent that we

650
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,920
can kind of practise some of
those mindful tasks a bit or in

651
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,760
different contexts.
And it doesn't have to be, you

652
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,960
know, it can be these little 5
minute app type things that are,

653
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:46,040
you know, helpful for those
sorts of things, but all sorts

654
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,960
of just minimal little tasks.
You know, you've probably caught

655
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,679
yourself sitting there eating,
you know, a sandwich, listening

656
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,040
to music and scrolling on your
phone all at the same time.

657
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,880
Just that sort of bombardment of
stimuli, thinking about just

658
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,640
identifying single tasks and
going, no, I'm just going to do

659
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,880
that.
Beyond that though, I think

660
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,480
actually being a bit more
deliberate when we are taking on

661
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,600
tasks that we know needs that
focus, rather than treating them

662
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,240
as things that we can switch
into and out of is probably

663
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:16,840
something that's quite useful as
well.

664
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,120
Because as we're saying, you
switch from one thing to another

665
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,200
thing to another thing.
Right now I need high intensity

666
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,200
focus.
It's almost like, all right,

667
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,480
well, what what's going to be
ideal in terms of being able to

668
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,400
do that?
Because you know, the problem

669
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,280
with phones is I remember when
procrastinating, I would be

670
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,800
cleaning the coffee machine and
doing all these sorts of things

671
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,720
there.
Phones are such rewarding and,

672
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,240
and really low level
procrastination.

673
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,720
You don't have to do much to
kind of get a bit of a kick out

674
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:45,520
of them and they're right there.
So I think moving a device far

675
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,920
away from you while you are
needing to do that, you know,

676
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,640
probably a lot of people are
used to working with one or two

677
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,640
or three screens these days as
well, can have some efficiencies

678
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,800
with it.
But at the same time you're

679
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,640
getting more stimulus there and
you have that capacity to switch

680
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,360
a bit more.
So reducing that down and then

681
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,800
going, all right, do I need to
be online for the next half an

682
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,520
hour while I'm reading this
thing or doing whatever else it

683
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,520
is.
So again, it's kind of like,

684
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,640
well, when you do just get that
little, this is boring, I'd

685
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,800
really like to just switch to my
phone.

686
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,400
Your phone's not there.
OK, I guess I'll keep going with

687
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,720
this sort of thing or just just
look up this unrelated thing

688
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:25,440
that I'm looking to, oh, the
internet's not OK, OK, that's

689
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,400
why I'm focusing on.
So it just increases the

690
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,600
threshold that it takes you to
actually step away from that

691
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,000
task and almost guides you back
a little bit.

692
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,520
So I think some of those sorts
of techniques can be sort of

693
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,680
very helpful and also sometimes
just accountability.

694
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,360
So I think when you can have a
situation where you're like,

695
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:51,040
right, I need to do this within
this next half hour and you tell

696
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,080
someone else then that who's in
turn is going to be accountable

697
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,080
for you for what?
For whatever they're doing.

698
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,840
These sorts of things can help
you kind of push through some of

699
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,800
that as well.
So I think, you know, sounds

700
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,320
from everything that we've,
we've gone over today, there's

701
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,360
not really any real consensus
or, or evidence that the

702
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,440
Internet has permanently altered
our, our attention spans or the

703
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,640
ability to focus.
And it sounds like it's more

704
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,360
environmental.
And if the time is spent kind of

705
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,960
crafting that environment that
you know, is going to work best

706
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,560
for you, whether, you know, as
we, as we touched on earlier, it

707
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,080
is working from home and not
having those distractions or,

708
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,280
you know, putting in some
headphones with a bit of white

709
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,400
noise.
It sounds like that's actually

710
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,960
the key factor in in what is
going to help people

711
00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:38,000
concentrate.
Not so much, you know, claiming

712
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,360
that the Internet has ruined
their attention spans.

713
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,040
Is that correct?
Yeah.

714
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,160
Look, and I think that's the
immensely reassuring thing that

715
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,320
has sort of happened from what
I've kind of systematically, you

716
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,840
know, investigated through the
literature reviews showing these

717
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,800
abilities seem to be largely
intact.

718
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,960
We have not permanently
compromised our our attention or

719
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,040
our cognitive capabilities in
ways that aren't retrievable.

720
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,280
What we have changed and changed
pretty massively are our our

721
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,040
attention related habits.
So how much we tend to do these

722
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,280
things and that sort of
reclaiming of attention then

723
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,120
involves, all right, well, how
do I change these habits?

724
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,760
How do I set things up so that I
can create an environment where

725
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,600
I'm more likely to be able to
immerse myself in in the things

726
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,560
that are going to be helpful in
that context?

727
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,760
Sometimes, yeah.
But no, very reassuring that we

728
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,680
we haven't busted our brains
fundamentally and permanently.

729
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,880
So that's very good to know for
anybody that is a bit concerned

730
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,080
about that.
What can people you know?

731
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,000
How can they follow you to with
what you're up to?

732
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,000
Yeah, sure.
So I guess I'm on Blue Sky and

733
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,080
LinkedIn a little bit and post
bits and pieces of the research

734
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,920
that we put out in in our labs.
We are, I guess I've been, I'm

735
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,120
part of a, a research project
here in WA with Healthway

736
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:57,360
looking at how young LGBTQ plus
people are, you know, using

737
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,520
social media and the like in
ways that can be really

738
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:01,840
enhancing for their mental
health.

739
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,000
So recognising that this is kind
of something that's, you know,

740
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,880
in endemic amongst young people
and can be used for potential

741
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,200
great benefit, but also beyond
that, you know, really

742
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,600
interested in how this can be
shaping mental health, both for

743
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,000
better and for worse sometimes.
And because it is such a, a

744
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,320
changing landscaping
environment, there's always, you

745
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,920
know, sort of new and
interesting things out there to,

746
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,360
for us to be sort of
understanding and what sort of

747
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,000
impact it's having on, on both
our our emotions and how we, we

748
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,400
process the world and our
cognitive capability.

749
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,000
So it's something that will kind
of, you know, keep chipping away

750
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,760
at as, as they come up.
And but yeah, no, please, by all

751
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,280
means have a follow.
And we tend to put research out

752
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,480
as as we find it.
Thank you so much for joining us

753
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,040
today, Patrick.
That was great.

754
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,480
Been a great pleasure Gareth,
thanks for having me.

755
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,400
For more info on what we've
discussed today, check out the

756
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,360
show notes.
If you enjoyed this one, you can

757
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,520
subscribe to Ruined by the
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758
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,640
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759
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,280
leaving a review.
I'm Gareth King, see you next

760
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:06,520
time.