Has the internet ruined The Job Hunt? - Edan Haddock

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Welcome to Ruined by the
Internet.

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I'm Gareth King.
Today we're asking, has the

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Internet ruined the job hunt?
It was once a very human centric

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process, but for so many of us,
the Internet has transformed

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looking for work into an
automated, opaque and intensely

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competitive digital gauntlet.
To help us unpack what's going

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on, we're joined by Eden
Haddock, Global Head of Talent

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and People Experience at
Movember.

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Eden, thanks so much for joining
us and welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much Gareth.
It's it's great to be here,

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particularly on such a beautiful
sunny day.

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Yeah, it's lovely outside today,
but before we get into it, can

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you just tell us a bit about the
work that you do and the journey

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that led you to this point?
Well, the work I do at the

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moment, I look after global
talent for Movember and that's

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total talent.
So that is hiring externals but

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also developing our people
internally.

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And Movember's just such a huge
movement.

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It's a lot bigger than people
realise and a lot more complex.

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So I recruit in Australia, New
Zealand, Canada, United States,

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United Kingdom, Ireland.
So I'm basically 24/7 jet lagged

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to be honest, Gareth and.
A lot.

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A lot on your place.
Around the globe, yeah.

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And the the exciting thing about
a role like mine at Movember is,

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you know, people think Movember
and they think the really

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creative fundraising movement
that was born out of two two

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lads having, you know, having a
beer in the pub, right.

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And raising funds for a family
member that was impacted by by

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cancer.
But you know, there, it's all of

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that.
It is a fundraising charity and

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you know, it's a significant one
with global reach.

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But we actually fund our own
research programmes, our own

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clinical research programmes.
We have an Institute of Men's

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Health, the November Institute
of Men's Health that, you know,

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they do all sorts of things.
We're tackling toxic

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masculinities, we're tackling
indigenous health, we're

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tackling health literacy in
young men.

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I mean, it's, it's, there are 70
different programmes that we run

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throughout the world.
And, you know, being able to see

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the impact of the work that I do
from the talent that I bring in

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and, and seeing how they're
really making a difference in

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men's health on a global scale
is, is really exciting.

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But then on the other hand, I'll
hire a really creative marketer

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that'll do a, you know, kick ass
marketing campaign around our

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big fundraising in terms it's
really creative and edgy and out

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there there.
And so it's a really interesting

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space I work in.
Yeah, yeah.

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So obviously November's, you
know, come a long way since it's

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it's early days.
How many, how many staff you

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know combined around the world
does November have?

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Yeah.
And look, we deliberately

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operate lean right, because the
the the funds that we raise from

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folks like us growing moustaches
or you know, people doing move

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for November challenges, we want
to make sure that that, that

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funding is going to the
programmes, right.

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So we have to operate lean and
we're all, we're all very

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dedicated, busy individuals, but
there are 350 of us scattered

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around the globe.
So yeah, cool.

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That's actually huge.
When you consider, as I said,

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something that was born, you
know, 20 years ago by two two

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guys having an idea in a pub,
it's just extraordinary.

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Yeah, absolutely.
And I guess you know, with with

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such a large remit as well and,
and you know, you being, you

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know, someone that is passionate
around innovation in in talent

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and recruitment.
What would you say is the most

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surprising change you've seen in
the industry because of

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technology?
Because of technology

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specifically, look, there are a
lot, I mean, we're in the most

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exciting phase at the moment,
which which is, you know, the AI

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revolution, right,
unsurprisingly.

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But what, what I think is really
surprising around that is as

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professionals in, in talent
acquisition and talent

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management, I think people
aren't realising how rapidly our

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roles are changing.
And I don't think people are

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embracing the creativity around
that at the moment.

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And I've been on that journey as
well.

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But I, I think that's been that,
that this is the time, this is

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the exciting time.
But I think back, I mean, I was

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still printing resumes and
putting them into a yellow

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Manila folder when I started in
this game, right?

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And you know, then you had COVID
where I, I pre COVID, I never

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thought that I would be
comfortable hiring someone that

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I've interviewed through a
digital platform form.

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And you know, even back then, it
was kind of like you would tee

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up a Skype if someone was
overseas and you know, then

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you'd be like, oh, but we're
going to need to fly them over

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because we need to meet them in
person.

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We can't hire someone who's only
met digitally.

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So like these changes happen
that are environmental changes.

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But you know, again, I think the
technology advancements that we

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had to catch up with
digitization during COVID has

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really, really changed the way
we work.

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And losing that human connection
in person means we have have to

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amplify the human connection
through digital.

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Likewise with AI.
Yeah, absolutely.

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And and on that point around
dialling up the human connection

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through digital, we know that
everyone kind of was thrown into

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that digital way of
communicating by by necessity

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during COVID and it's stuck
around to varying degrees.

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But what would you say the most
significant advantages and even

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disadvantages that that approach
might bring when it comes to

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matching the right candidate
with the right role?

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Yeah.
Look, I think, I think we give

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more power to the candidate to
be able to engage with us in a

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way that is right for them.
I, I, I think back in the formal

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interview panel days, I mean,
that was intimidating.

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I mean, did did you ever enjoy
going to a job interview?

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Look, I think, I think I've done
a panel one with like 3 people

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once and that's not even a lot
compared to stories I've, I've

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heard and read from other
people.

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And I just felt wild, you know,
I felt I was being really

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judged.
So I can imagine that, you know,

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as that grows at scale and, and
you know, say maybe people are

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even doing that online with even
more people, you, you also lose

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those nuances that you obviously
get in the room.

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So you kind of got to judge by
the tiny little square that you

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can see on your screen, which I
guess would make it even harder.

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Yeah.
And, and look, we're, we're

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being invited into people's
homes rather than inviting them

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into our environment and our
office.

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And I think there's something
really meaningful in that.

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And I think there's something
really powerful in that.

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Like I'm, I'm talking to you now
and I absolutely love the

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aeroplane lamp that you've got
in the background.

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And I love the artwork that I
can see on your bookshelf.

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I, I can't because you've got
your blur on.

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I can't see what the books are.
But you know, I'm curious about

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that because that's going to
give me a little bit of insight

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into you and we can form a
really great human connection.

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And I think when it comes to
interviews, being invited into

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someone's home is the most
intimate thing a candidate can

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do.
And it shifts that power.

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It used to be the power of this
is our environment and we're

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inviting you in.
And, and you had to show up and

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you had to in some ways lose
your authenticity because, you

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know, I, I worked in fin
services pre COVID and it was,

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you know, it was suits and ties,
right?

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It was all very rigid and very
formal, but the intimacy of

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being in someone's home
environment immediately helps

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you relax.
It helps me get to know you a

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little bit more.
But I just, I just think there

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is that beauty in the warmth
that comes with that.

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And, and, and you know, we don't
think about these things like

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you, you possibly haven't
thought about that.

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I don't think about that overly,
but I know in my mind that it's

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there.
Yeah, no, that's, that's such a

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good point around the intimacy
of getting a peek into someones

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environment.
You know, I remember I saw

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something a couple of weeks ago,
just it's just reminded me of

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it.
And it was, it was somebody

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talking about if they were
interviewing a candidate and

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they saw a rubbish bin or
something in the shot, you know,

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like stuff that you'd have in
everybody's house.

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Yeah, like that's a
disqualifier.

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So it's kind of, I don't know,
everyone must have their own

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little system of of judgement.
But that picture you're pointing

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out behind me is actually my my
fiance got got me that at

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Christmas and it's like this
Google map kind of artwork with

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the pin dropped on where we went
on our first date.

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How amazing.
So it's quite, it's quite sweet.

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And see, this is the this is the
conversation.

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And, and it's particularly
important at Movember, these

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these human conversations is
where, as I said, the power play

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doesn't exist anymore and I can
get to know the real you.

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And that is so important for our
culture, right?

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Like, yeah, totally.
Rather than being so stiff and

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formal and you know, ironically,
we're all putting, you know,

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background philtres on now and
you know, that's the as well.

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But still you're in your
environment and you're

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comfortable and you're safe.
I think that's safety is what we

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need to, you know, be really
mindful of you're able to to be

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yourself and, and, and you're
not acting and you're not posing

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because because you're safe.
Yeah, that's a, that's a good

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point there around being
yourself and relaxed versus,

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say, putting on that show that
you might feel obliged to if you

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were called into an in person
interview somewhere.

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And never mind if there's even
more people.

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You kind of almost feel like
you've got to transform yourself

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into that room rather than than
letting yourself shine through.

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You know, I get it's probably
quite an intimidating thing for

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for a lot of people if that's
not something that you're used

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to doing all the time.
That said, we're talking around

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how easy it is now to find
candidates or roles online,

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which is obviously bought this
gigantic amount of scale and

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opportunity as well.
A lot of the time that we're

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seeing, whether it's job seekers
or even talent, people like

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yourself, it's kind of this
frustration around some of these

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tools that built for efficiency
on on everybody's regard and

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everyone's kind of feeling them
out still like what's the best

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way to optimise them from from
either end?

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If there's, you know, job
seekers that are potentially

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frustrated at this process that
we're all learning how best to

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utilise it.
If they're frustrated, do you

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think it's because they might
feel ignored due to the sheer

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scale of opportunity that
technology and the Internet

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provides everybody?
So there's obviously such a huge

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amount of applicants for any
role.

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Or do you think that some of
that could come down to trying

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to beat that system by this kind
of low effort numbers game

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approach to applications?
How will this play out do you

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think?
This is how will it play out?

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This is such a big question,
Gareth.

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I'm just trying to trying to
work out where to start because

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you know, we could, we could
talk for a couple of hours on

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this one.
I look, ease of application, I

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suppose is, is where we start,
which leads to volume of

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applications and and I kind of
rebel against that a little bit,

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to be honest.
Gareth, I, I hear a lot of

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commentary in my industry people
saying cover letters are dead.

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I'm on the other end of the
scale, you know, I think the

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drag and drop and post and
there's actually, you know, you

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may have heard on your audience
may have heard.

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I mean, there are AI tools that
you could pass your resume over

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to and it will do your job
applications for you.

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And just overnight while you're
sleeping, submit your

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application to 20 different
organisations, 200 different

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organisations, right?
There's, there's that kind of

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that technology on the candidate
side that, that, that is

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becoming more and more
prevalent.

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I, I think from my perspective,
I, I, I want to make a job

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application an effort, but I
want to do it in a fun way.

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So I, I, you know, there are
things that I have already

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introduced.
Gareth, if you were to apply for

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a position with Movember,
you'll, you'll pop in a Spotify

225
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link for your favourite song,
right?

226
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And when I'm looking over your
CVI can play your favourite

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song.
It's all embedded in my system

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and it's embedded in your
application.

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You've got optional questions
where you can talk about, you

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know, a, a travel destination
you want to go to.

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You can talk about your most
prized possession.

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You can talk about your family,
your pets, all of that.

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You know, you've got all of that
and you control the question and

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the answer you it's not a series
of questions that I ask you.

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So there's there's that element
of play in there.

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And, and I think you know that
that kind of experience is going

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to amplify the human experience
once again.

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And and it gives me an
environment for you to be able

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00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,400
to again be authentic, because I
can start that conversation by

240
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,040
saying, Hey, that was a tune
your selected drive like love

241
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,760
Tina Turner as well.
Like, hey, did you ever get to

242
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see alive?
You know right, Like and then

243
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,000
already your guards down.
Yeah, no, absolutely.

244
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And I think that kind of human
connection is always the best

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icebreaker for for any, whether
it's a a job application or just

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a conversation anywhere, finding
that common cause is, is the

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best way to do it.
And it feels like there is a

248
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general vibe at the moment that
that is kind of being lost as

249
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everyone figures out how the
least amount of work we can put

250
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,560
in to try and beat this
technology.

251
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,760
Yeah.
Might be so it's it's very, very

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good to hear even like your
suggestion of the Spotify track

253
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or you know, just to connect
like that, which again will make

254
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everything so much more human
and easy for everybody.

255
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,440
So that was actually one of my
next questions I was going to

256
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,000
ask you.
One of the misconceptions is

257
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that there isn't much of a human
touch during this, this, whether

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00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,560
it's we call it the employment
pipeline at scale currently,

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00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:31,880
beyond people thinking that
they're just a a data point or

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or a number in a system, what
would you say the other

261
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,000
misconceptions that people might
have?

262
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,600
Yeah, it's, it's interesting
because I think there is a big

263
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,520
shift going on at the moment.
And I think, you know, on

264
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,360
reflection, there was a time
where I think HR and and talent

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00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,600
professionals were trying to
make the application process as

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simplified as possible.
Drag and drop fire it off low

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effort, do it on the train, do
it within 30 seconds, done and

268
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dusted.
Because people were trying to

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get more and more people into
the funnel.

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00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,040
Because particularly in
industries like technology where

271
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it was almost impossible
possible a few years ago to find

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software engineers and beyond,
right.

273
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,600
Like like within that techie
space, I think you know,

274
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,200
everyone was focused on a talent
crunch and they tried to make

275
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,960
things as simplified as humanly
possible.

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00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,880
So what what that has been done
is a lot of that process and

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00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,080
tech and that legacy of that
time is still in play and still

278
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,320
exists.
But you know, I, I think trying

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00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:39,080
to beat these systems is not the
way to go by firing off as many

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00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,200
applications as possible.
And I know we'll probably talk

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00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,560
about the selection process from
someone on on my side throughout

282
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,360
this conversation, but it's not
a numbers game.

283
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,760
I, I think from my perspective
with Movember, I want to hear

284
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,120
your story and I want to hear
why you want to come and do good

285
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,280
with Movember, right?
Why do you want to work for

286
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:00,960
Movember and do good in the
world?

287
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,840
And people are sharing their
personal connections, whether

288
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:10,480
that's I, I lost a close friend
to mental illness, so my father

289
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,840
is undergoing treatment for
prostate cancer or you know

290
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,320
what?
Whatever it is, right?

291
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,080
Like we've all got a connection
to men's health in some way,

292
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,000
regardless of whether we're a
man or not.

293
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,720
So I want to hear those stories,
right?

294
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,600
I want to hear the why behind
the application.

295
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,720
So you need to be deliberate.
Yeah.

296
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,880
In your application, instead of
this, spray and pray.

297
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,520
Spray and pray.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

298
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,880
Would you say that that I guess
that want from someone in your

299
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,280
position, is that common?
How much of that is born out of

300
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,320
maybe the size of the
organisation?

301
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,240
Like if you're in a gigantic
corporate, I can imagine it

302
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,400
would be very different than
something as worthy as Movember.

303
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,640
Look, I think if you were to
layer it up to your chief people

304
00:15:53,640 --> 00:16:00,040
officer, to your C-Suite values,
purpose, impact, that's what

305
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,080
they want.
I, I think when you get deeper,

306
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,640
particularly into the large
enterprise organisations, when

307
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,880
you know, when you're talking
thousands and thousands of

308
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,280
employees, 10s of thousands of
employees, as you go further

309
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,040
down the layer, I think
naturally a lot of that

310
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,520
connection is lost.
So would, you know, a

311
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,080
recruitment team of 100 can, can
we hand on heart say that every

312
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,360
single one of those hundred
people are connected to the

313
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,360
organisation strategy, have that
really strong focus on, on

314
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,800
values potentially, potentially
not right.

315
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,600
Like, you know, there, there can
be a breakdown in that.

316
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:42,680
But I think at the heart of the
industry that that I'm in and I,

317
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,080
I, I mean, we get into this
field because we want to help

318
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,920
people.
At the end of the day, we want

319
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,040
to help people gain meaningful
employment.

320
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,880
And there's a buzz to that.
And when we do place people in

321
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,160
employment, we celebrate with
them, and that's why we do what

322
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,880
we do.
This ain't an easy job.

323
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,800
Yeah, look.
Really not.

324
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,080
I hear that a lot.
You know, especially at the

325
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,640
moment, like we've said, the
sheer scale of everything that

326
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,720
that is how everything's
operating due to the the

327
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,599
opportunity, whether it's
global, you know, you've got

328
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,160
people firing things off into
countries that they're not even

329
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,520
in and just see what happens.
And I can imagine that really

330
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,359
clogs up the system if it's not
utilised efficiently.

331
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,599
But Speaking of utilising it
efficiently, how do those

332
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,560
applicant tracking systems and
even other AI tools Philtre

333
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,320
candidates efficiently and
effectively to help you get the

334
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,200
right type of person that you're
looking for, for the role?

335
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:37,840
Yeah.
And this is a bit of a myth

336
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,240
Buster for you here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

337
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,040
Look, they're not ranked from
when you apply some that do a

338
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,080
little bit of that, they'll kind
of do a bit of a skills match.

339
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,640
There was this trend going on
that I didn't quite get into

340
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,640
when it came to skills based
hiring.

341
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,920
I think it's kind of it's dying
a bit of a slow death to be

342
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,680
honest, but it was a big buzz in
our industry and I never quite

343
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,400
got it.
And that was sort of skills

344
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,720
matching from your CV to skills
within the organisation and and

345
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,840
matching it that way.
There's, there's a lot more to

346
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,080
it by the way, but just just
simplifying it right, Just.

347
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,480
On that, would you say that
skills based matching if if

348
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,080
someone's taking the approach of
say finding the keywords in the

349
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,600
job description and then weaving
those into their CV to make

350
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,480
themselves the perfect candidate
is that doesn't that approach

351
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,000
doesn't?
Work doesn't work now, now, now

352
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,680
look and and I'll, I'll, I'll do
a pro skills argument.

353
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,200
Not that I am pro skills hiring.
I've I'm, I'm kind of in the

354
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,760
middle.
It's like if it works for your

355
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,680
organisation, it works for your
organisation, right?

356
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,720
But you know that there needs to
be an assessment for that to be

357
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,720
the reality, right?
Just someone saying that they've

358
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,000
got a skill.
So what?

359
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,880
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Right, like so, and, and then

360
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,880
there, there are platforms that
that do that, you know, there,

361
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,800
there are platforms that
specialised in candidate

362
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,280
assessment and there are a lot
of them, whether it's, you know,

363
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,560
even back in the day with
psychometrics, right?

364
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,800
Which, which still exist, but,
or there's competency based

365
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,840
skills platforms where it will
match your skills to, to roles

366
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,160
and it will rank you because
it's, you know, it's, it's, it's

367
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,160
a test, right?
It's got a result, it's got an

368
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,280
outcome.
It will rank your percentage

369
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,600
based on someone else and then
the ATS will have you sitting

370
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,920
higher than another candidate.
But that's past the application

371
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,600
stage.
What, what I have at application

372
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,920
stage in terms of AI is that
I've, I've got Copilot just

373
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,640
basically summarising your CV
into a short and succinct bullet

374
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,520
point, bullet point, bullet
point, bullet point.

375
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,800
So when I'm looking through CVS
and I get hundreds of them for

376
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,480
each role, I'm able to look at a
really short, sharp, snappy

377
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,560
summary of your experience.
And then for me, I can dive in.

378
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,760
I can play your Spotify song, I
can learn about what kind of

379
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,640
pizza topping you like.
And I can and, and and I can

380
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,880
then, you know, I can read your
CV from that point, right?

381
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,520
Yeah, that's there.
But, but where the power is for

382
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,800
me is I have a free text, call
it a cover letter, a free text

383
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,680
where people tell me about the
why and, and why they want to

384
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,600
come and do this work.
Regardless of what you're doing

385
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,680
at Movember, you are making an
impact for Men's Health and for

386
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,280
us.
All of us at November, we, we,

387
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,640
we want to know because you,
again, it ain't an easy job like

388
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,480
we're dealing with, with heavy
topics.

389
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,440
We have a lot of fun and we've
got a really great culture and

390
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,120
we make sure we've got that
balance.

391
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:33,520
But you know, you, you need to
have that want to make a

392
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,720
difference and a want to change
the world we work in.

393
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,000
I work in five different time
zones, right?

394
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,240
Like it's, it's long days and,
you know, every day I'm dealing

395
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:49,240
with topics like cancer, mental
health, you know, suicides, that

396
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,920
these are heavy things we talk
about that in a really real way.

397
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,160
And, and we're very edgy in the
way we communicate externally.

398
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,320
But you know, I'd, I have to
read people's stories around

399
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:04,960
those topics every day.
So I I need to be really

400
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:10,000
dedicated to the cause and
making that change, otherwise

401
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,480
that that that would be a really
hard environment to work in, I

402
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,200
feel.
Yeah, no, absolutely.

403
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,720
And I can imagine that as you
touch on a few minutes ago, just

404
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,680
that cover letter explaining why
you've got that interest in that

405
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,440
particular role or that
particular organisation.

406
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,560
Like you know, me personally,
I'm quite a big believer in the

407
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,280
value of a cover letter.
I don't know if it's because

408
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,160
I'm, I'm a bit older or, or
whatever, but I think that when

409
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,480
you look at the the application
process, whatever it is, that's

410
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,680
where you've kind of got the
space to actually tell a bit of

411
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,000
a story without, you know,
trying to cram whatever you want

412
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,360
into your CV or your or your
resume.

413
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,200
So that's interesting to hear
that that you've got Co pilot

414
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,720
kind of summarising it, you
know, putting the soundtrack on

415
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,160
and and then that's how it's
actually presented to you,

416
00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:02,040
because I think that one of the
perceptions out in the market at

417
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,400
the moment is that it's almost
this AI versus AI arms race.

418
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,720
It's like this huge blockage
from either end or everybody's

419
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,240
end.
And, you know, I remember kind

420
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,920
of reading about how you've got
people using AI to write their

421
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,520
applications to try and be an AI
system, which will, will, will

422
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,560
use AI to judge this person.
And so it's kind of this

423
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,720
ecosystem, the, or the
perception of it is, is it's

424
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,600
just AI tools trying to fight
against each other.

425
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,680
So it's really nice to hear
there is actually a human in

426
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,840
there and how these things are
being used.

427
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,880
For sure, yeah.
But that said, there's a bit of

428
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,920
talk at the moment around these
kind of ethical implications of

429
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,480
AI screening, you know,
regarding potential biases that

430
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,600
might disadvantage certain
groups.

431
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,040
Firstly, is this perception
real?

432
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,440
And if so, how are these
mitigated?

433
00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,720
For sure.
And and I'll give you a live

434
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,920
example.
I mean, I've, I've introduced an

435
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,560
an AI agent, which is a bit of a
mini me.

436
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,400
His name is Joel and, and he,
he, he will phone screen you.

437
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,280
It's, it's a genetic AI and
he'll have a conversation with

438
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,360
you for 20 to 30 minutes and he
will probe and you'll be able to

439
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:18,720
ask him questions.
He'll ask you questions.

440
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,360
And it, it is pretty amazing
technology right now.

441
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,120
Is that ethical?
I say yes.

442
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,440
The reason being, and there are
a number of reasons and, and

443
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,360
that there are a number of
reasons why I've introduced

444
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,800
this.
So we're we're talking about the

445
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,440
application process earlier and
hyper personalising that and

446
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,600
people sharing their connection
to the work that we do at

447
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,800
Movember 203, hundred of them
come through the funnel.

448
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,520
I'm a human being that can
probably only speak to for 20

449
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,720
minutes, 8 to 10 of them a day.
And then I've got everything

450
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,800
else going on.
You know, that's, that's, that's

451
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,760
not my only job, right?
Like I look after talent and

452
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,160
people experience.
So it's, you know, end to end

453
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,680
employee life cycle.
What this does is I can then

454
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,760
have everyone and give everyone
the opportunity, if you've

455
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,080
applied for a role with
November, to have that

456
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,280
opportunity to put your best
foot forward and to go beyond

457
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:21,480
the, the CV and demonstrate your
capabilities, your potential,

458
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,800
your skills.
Again, you know, I mean, they,

459
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,880
they come into play.
I don't, you know, skills based

460
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,440
hirings are another scenario,
but but you know, being able to

461
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,800
demonstrate your experience,
your capabilities, your future

462
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,960
potential, what you're looking
for, your motivations, and to be

463
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,520
able to do that in a, in a
conversational manner.

464
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:41,120
I think that is ethical because
I think it does remove bias

465
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,240
because if I can only select 8
to 10 people and I'm not relying

466
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,280
on a tool to rank them because I
don't do that assessment and I

467
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,400
don't do skills based hiring,
that there are going to be

468
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,160
biases at played.
I mean human beings.

469
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,120
So we have biases whether we
know it or not.

470
00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:59,880
And you know, unconscious bias,
right?

471
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,720
Like, I mean, there could be,
you know, someone bullied me at

472
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,760
high school and you know, you
know, they've got.

473
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,440
Got a name?
Yeah, same name, right?

474
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:09,960
Like it can be as simple as
that.

475
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,560
And even though I'm saying to
myself, well, forget about it,

476
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,800
there's something in the back of
my head that that is still

477
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,600
niggling away even though I
don't know it.

478
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,200
Yeah, yeah.
And I think just on that point

479
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:24,360
around, you know, the agentic
tools, I have seen a bit of

480
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,400
discourse where someone might
have have said I had to go to a

481
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,120
job interview and it was an AI
kind of interviewing me.

482
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,080
And it they've taken it as quite
an insult that they're not

483
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,040
getting to speak to a person.
But I can imagine that, as you

484
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,400
said, you're so overwhelmed by
not only this one position that

485
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,280
might be in question, trying to
feel with the right person for

486
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:47,360
that and everything, anything
else.

487
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,600
These tools of course, have been
implemented for a reason.

488
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,480
So it's quite interesting to see
that there is a, a, a real

489
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,840
necessity to using those tools
to make sure that everyone that

490
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,720
wants it can have the same shot.
Because it becomes fairer, yeah,

491
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:03,920
in my view.
Now.

492
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,400
Now we all know that there are
instances where AI can be

493
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,640
biassed as well.
And there's the statistics to

494
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,680
say AI favours female
candidates, for example.

495
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,200
And they've, they've, they've
tested that and you know that

496
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,800
that's there and there's a
slight favouritism towards

497
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,720
female candidates.
But I think the key to this is

498
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,960
contextualising it.
Like I've, I've got to give the

499
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,480
context as to why I am doing
this.

500
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,200
That's, that's I, so people
know, I, I want more people to

501
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,520
have an opportunity to, I, I
want you to have a shot at this,

502
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,480
right?
Like, you know, I want everyone

503
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,280
to be able to put their best
foot forward.

504
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,520
That's that's A, but then B,
it's give people.

505
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,440
And this is where the ethics
come into it.

506
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,840
Everyone's on a different
journey with AI.

507
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,520
And then we talk diversity,
right?

508
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,000
We have people, neuro diverse
that come through that pipeline.

509
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,240
You need to give people the
opportunity not only to opt out,

510
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,320
but also to opt in.
It's an opt in, opt out.

511
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,200
Which would you choose?
You know, do you want to talk to

512
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,840
me on the phone?
Do you want to talk to me on

513
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,920
Zoom?
Do you want to go through the AI

514
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,720
tool?
Now what we're finding, as you

515
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,680
know, we've been rolling this
out and we've been rolling it

516
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,200
out for our volume higher.
That's where we've kind of

517
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,080
started at that, you know,
seasonal staff that come in to

518
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,000
support Movember through
throughout, you know, the

519
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,320
campaign, 97% of people opted
into the AII.

520
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,200
Don't know whether to get
offended by that because I'm a

521
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:30,080
pretty nice guy, but 97 actually
posed to to speak to Joel over

522
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,840
me.
And I think, OK, there are a few

523
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,560
elements that play with that.
I think a lot of it is curiosity

524
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,520
because all of this technology
that is advancing so much faster

525
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,920
than our brains can keep up with
is pretty fascinating for the

526
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,200
general public.
I know I probably would have

527
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,400
chosen the AI tool because I'll
be like, Oh my God, how does

528
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,560
this thing work right?
So that that may plateau out,

529
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,480
like we may see less and less of
that as you know, people

530
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,800
actually experience it more
often.

531
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,560
But the feedback has been really
positive as well and really

532
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,680
surprising that they can
actually have a conversation and

533
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,160
that they, you know, can do it
in their own time again, can do

534
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,520
it in an environment that they
feel safe.

535
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,520
They can do it on the beach if
they want to, right?

536
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,440
So you know you're you're able
to bring your authentic self in

537
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,280
an environment that brings out
your best self.

538
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,600
Yeah, that's that's such a good
point.

539
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,920
And I think that contradicts so
much of the chatter out there at

540
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,120
the moment around what these
tools are.

541
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:29,000
If there is a general perception
that they are not dehumanising,

542
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,840
but kind of cold.
And it feels like the actual

543
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,680
intention behind them is to make
sure that a, everybody has the,

544
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,160
the equal footing and
opportunity to, to kind of sell

545
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,720
themselves and get into the
role.

546
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,520
But then as you, as you also
said, they're giving people

547
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,440
different avenues that they
might embrace that work the best

548
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,640
for them.
Because as you've alluded to,

549
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,760
some people might deal best
speaking to a person, others

550
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,640
might not like that pressure.
They might want to be in their

551
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,920
house where they're comfortable.
So it is great to hear that

552
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:04,280
behind and the mystery and and
so much of the, I guess the

553
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,040
frustration that there is with
this kind of tools at the

554
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:12,840
moment, the actual output is to
give humans the best shot to be

555
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,800
more human.
Yeah, we've got to open our

556
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,600
minds with AI because I think so
much of the misconception is

557
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,280
that AI is a productivity tool
and it's there to take people's

558
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,280
jobs or to do people's jobs
better or it's to save time,

559
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,680
it's to save money, all of that.
When we think AI in the

560
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,800
workplace, that's where our mind
goes.

561
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,240
But but it's actually not that
that's that's not the primary

562
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,320
purpose, right?
It is, you know, it is going to

563
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,600
going to be a result of using
AI, right?

564
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,040
You are going to see that, but I
don't think that's the intent.

565
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,720
I think yeah.
And, and again, on that point,

566
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,360
it's almost how you implement it
because, you know, we've all

567
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,920
seen loads of people that might
be like, oh, I, I use this tool

568
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,840
and it will read my emails or,
you know, just like these low

569
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,360
level tasks, which you could
draw the connection there That

570
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,440
I, that, that is an efficiency
thing, but it's almost replacing

571
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,640
part of you as the human.
Whereas what you've said is if

572
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,160
you use it to kind of augment
what you're capable of as a

573
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,440
human, you can kind of become a
a superhuman version of

574
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,800
yourself, we'll say now.
Yeah, it's, it's like what's

575
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,240
what's the, what's the film, the
substance, right.

576
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,560
You know, I've, I've, I've
injected that and I've had my

577
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,320
little AI guy grow out of my
back.

578
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,480
Yeah, yeah, I have to try and
find what this job looks.

579
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:32,720
Like version of me?
Yeah.

580
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,440
So it's it's yeah, it is, it is
interesting.

581
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,200
Gonna be interesting how that
all shakes out because it's this

582
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,560
quite a divergent at the moment
around as you said, some people

583
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,080
see it as it's here to replace
jobs, do the task.

584
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,000
And I guess if you can only
imagine it being used for that

585
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,040
low hanging fruit, that could be
a thing.

586
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,000
But if you look at it, what kind
of opportunities and

587
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,120
augmentation processes it might
bring that, you know, it's a

588
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,960
entirely different kettle of
fish, as they say.

589
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,120
And The thing is right, like if
you implement AI without a focus

590
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,920
on amplifying human experience
on what sits on either side of

591
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,280
that IAI.
So for me, you know, this, this

592
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,840
syngentic AI and Joel and this
interview, phone interview tool,

593
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,200
if I hadn't elevated the human
experience at the front end of

594
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,640
that when you apply for a role
and all of the things that we

595
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,000
talk about with Spotify,
etcetera that we've already

596
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,840
covered off, right.
And then if I don't elevate the

597
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,000
human experience of the human to
human interview, then that

598
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,240
fails.
You know, you've, you, you can't

599
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:42,040
just lift and shift a tool like
that into an existing historical

600
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,720
recruitment process.
There has to be a, a, a full

601
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,560
strategy of where am I going to
lift the human skills and where

602
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,520
am I going to implement AI And
it has to balance.

603
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,400
Yeah, yeah, totally.
It kind of went on to a question

604
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,160
I wanted to ask you, which was
whether the, you know, there's a

605
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,440
perception that the human touch
in recruitment is, is being

606
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,760
lost, But is it a case that it's
simply shifting where the human

607
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,560
rights occurs in the hiring
funnel?

608
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,840
And I think that you've alluded
to it there.

609
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,600
That's that's kind of addressing
one of these misconceptions out

610
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,000
there at the moment that you're
just leaving it all up to to

611
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,720
robots to kind of manage
everything.

612
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,040
What would you say after
explaining kind of your process,

613
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,280
what would you say in your
opinion, are some actionable

614
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,400
strategies that either
candidates or employers can use

615
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,640
to cut out a lot of this noise
and increase their chances of

616
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,680
finding the right match for the
right role?

617
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,600
Yeah, it's oh gosh, there are so
many right.

618
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,400
Like where do we start?
Do we want to start on on the

619
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,240
candidate side?
How to breakthrough Yeah, good

620
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,560
for the noise.
I I think personalise

621
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,400
everything.
If you're if you're a candidate

622
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,800
listening and identify the
employers that you want to work

623
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,960
for have a really good and and
you will never not find the

624
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,400
values of an organisation or a
purpose without a very quick

625
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,240
search.
Plug it in.

626
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,640
You know, there we go.
You can plug it into ChatGPT 5

627
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,920
and you'll find it right.
You know, I think the hyper

628
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,080
personalisation, regardless of
whether that process is hyper

629
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,880
personalised yet, get it in your
cover letter and tailor your CV

630
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,000
for that role, right?
The more personal you are.

631
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,720
And let's break down that
misconception right now.

632
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,160
The firing off 200 applications
using a tool that's just going

633
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,680
to apply for everything.
It's not going to work, and

634
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,240
you're more than likely going to
get ruled out that way than you

635
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,200
are if you spend a couple of
minutes personalising your your

636
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,480
application.
And I think just before we go

637
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,960
back to say what strategies for
the company, like so much of

638
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,000
what I've seen and and read and
been hurt, is someone saying

639
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,720
I've fired off 5000 applications
using one of these tools.

640
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,320
I don't personalise anything and
I can't get any callbacks or any

641
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,200
interviews.
Yeah.

642
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,440
And then, you know, it becomes
this negative feedback loop

643
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,240
where you're not getting any
response to say 5000.

644
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,160
You may feel it's even worth
less effort moving forward when

645
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,400
the solution genuinely try and
connect with the person on the

646
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,560
other end of these things as a
human and as an, you know,

647
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,199
representative of a of a
business or an organisation,

648
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:10,719
that's where the effort should
be.

649
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,719
And it can be silly, right?
Like it doesn't need to be, you

650
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,639
know, I believe in couple
letters as do you.

651
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:18,639
We've, we've kind of landed on
that as a collective, right?

652
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:23,040
But I, I, I think, you know, I
love ACV where someone wax on a,

653
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,960
you know, a picture of
themselves wearing a fake

654
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,880
moustache.
I get them all the time, right?

655
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,679
And, and, and they'll be really,
really crazy and quirky.

656
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:33,560
And it's that sense of humour
coming through that I know all

657
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,600
this person, they've taken a
little bit of effort there and

658
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,480
they don't take themselves too
seriously.

659
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,880
And they understand that we're,
you know, edgy and we're real.

660
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,840
And that's how we operate.
And one of our values is fun.

661
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,480
And they're having fun.
And, you know, it can just be

662
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,760
little things like that.
Yeah, just to totally show that

663
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,880
you get the organisation, you
get it.

664
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,320
Yeah, Yeah.
But what could say companies or

665
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,200
people involved in hiring, like
what strategies could they

666
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,080
employ to optimise everything?
Like if they're potentially

667
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,120
feeling burnt out by this scale,
what tactics could they employ

668
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,400
to maybe help themselves sift
through that scale?

669
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,840
Look, we are a bloody
conservative industry, mate.

670
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,480
Like any talent leader, any HR
leader out there, we've got to

671
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,760
get our people embracing
creativity and we have to do it

672
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,800
now, OK?
Because otherwise, you know,

673
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,320
these machines can take over,
right?

674
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,120
They can, right.
So, so you, you need to be

675
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,640
creative in terms of what you're
doing or you're going to fall

676
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,080
behind.
I think at the moment it starts

677
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,960
small.
And I actually learned this

678
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,640
yesterday.
I was in an Amazon workshop on

679
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,360
AI.
That was a, you know, a

680
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,160
basically AI think group that
we've got at Movember that

681
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,680
involves CEO, chief marketing
officer, and there's about 10 of

682
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,040
us in there.
And, and it was really that

683
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,080
start, start small and scale
fast, you know, and, and, and

684
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,760
that's really stuck with me from
yesterday and something that

685
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,480
I've been thinking about a lot
today.

686
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,200
And, and, and I think that's
what I've, what I've done, you

687
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,400
know, with things like agentic
AI with, with how I've hyper

688
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,520
personalised the application
experience, there's so much more

689
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,840
I can do with it and I need to
scale that quickly or I'm going

690
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,360
to fall behind.
So I think what we're going to

691
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,320
see in the future, if
organisations don't catch up to

692
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,080
this and start doing that and
start being more creative and

693
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,480
thinking differently of what
that experience can look like

694
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,640
for applications, they're going
to lose because we will get

695
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,680
another talent crunch.
And you'll find that talent and

696
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,680
good talent will be going to the
organisations that are doing

697
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,360
that really well.
And I'm hoping Movember will be

698
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,000
probably going to be one of
those, right.

699
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,920
If, if, if you don't catch up
now, if, if you're still using

700
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,880
these outdated technologies,
these outdated systems, if

701
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,480
you're still ghosting
candidates, if you're still just

702
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,600
treating this as a numbers game,
you're going to lose because

703
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,280
this is advancing way too
quickly.

704
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,120
If you're not lifting and
elevating the human side of what

705
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,400
we do in recruitment and
selection, even 12 months from

706
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,080
now, things are going to look
very differently.

707
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,600
That that's a great segue into
into my next question, which was

708
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,880
going to be looking forward.
What might the, you know, the

709
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,280
candidate search or the job
search of the future potentially

710
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,040
look like in your opinion?
I think it's it's going to be

711
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,560
very deep consultative like I
think that connection is going

712
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,200
to be even stronger.
I think roles like mine are

713
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,520
going to become more of a career
and life coach, in all honesty.

714
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,160
OK.
I think we we will get to the

715
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,640
point the true value and where
what's keeping me up at night.

716
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,040
And I'll tell you what's keeping
me up at night is that, you

717
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,320
know, people are sharing those
really powerful stories with me.

718
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,760
They're putting effort into
their applications.

719
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,680
I'm inviting more and more
people into the funnel to

720
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,640
experience Movember and to put
their best foot forward.

721
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,160
And then what?
Right.

722
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,960
It's the end, then what?
So really if I had the time, if

723
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,440
I can automate as much as I can
in that front end and spend as

724
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,240
much time as I can in the and
then what?

725
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,040
I think that's where the power
is going to be because I think

726
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,880
that expectation is going to
become greater and greater.

727
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,520
It's not just a quick, short,
sharp feedback.

728
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,520
Sorry you've been unsuccessful,
whatever reasons even and a lot

729
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,000
of people don't even give a lot
of those reasons, right?

730
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,360
And in fact, the vast majority
of applications that come

731
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,920
through will get a thanks, but
no thanks in a, in a much nicer

732
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,360
way, obviously, but you know,
you know, so, so where does that

733
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,760
put us, right?
If we're, if we're doing all of

734
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,040
that at the front end through
the process, if we're relying on

735
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,720
automation, people are putting
all of that effort in.

736
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,840
What does that feedback loop
look like?

737
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,760
You know, we can't go like we
all know we can't ghost and

738
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,640
people still do that.
And I don't understand why,

739
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,680
because it's not the reason we
got into this industry.

740
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,200
So people that are in those
roles that are ghosting, it

741
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,360
makes no sense to me because
I'm, again, that would keep me

742
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,080
up at night.
Would you say that that's simply

743
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,920
born out of scale again, you
know, how could you give unique,

744
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:05,040
unique and and constructive
feedback to say 750 applicants

745
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,160
or I know, but.
You're right, you're absolutely

746
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,480
right.
And you know, talent functions

747
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,280
have been under resourced
always, right?

748
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,520
Like let's do more with less.
It always has been.

749
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,320
You know, we saw post COVID all
the redundancies that happened

750
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:19,760
in our space.
Everyone said, Oh, well, we're

751
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,880
not going to hire for a little
while because we we're going

752
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,760
through, you know, economic
recovery and we're just gonna

753
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,600
keep our organisations flat.
So we'll just boot the talent

754
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:28,800
team.
They're not gonna be recruiting.

755
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,000
And then of course, you know, 12
months later they had to build

756
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,160
another recruitment team, of
course.

757
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:37,560
So, you know, I, I think that
it's that it's long days, it's

758
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,880
long hours.
The traditional way of

759
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,240
recruiting and going through CV
by CV by CV is exhausting.

760
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:48,160
You become tired, you know,
consultants become lazy for

761
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,760
that.
And our technology just wasn't,

762
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,400
wasn't where it need, needed to
be in order to, to personalise

763
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,800
feedback.
And yes, it is, it is scale, it

764
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,240
is volume, but it's got a shift
and it's going to shift because

765
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,880
the expectations, as I said, if
we're expecting applicants to do

766
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,000
more and to share more and for
us to form that connection,

767
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,400
everything we're talking about
from your aeroplane lamp in the

768
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,320
background earlier, right?
Like if you're inviting me into

769
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,120
your home, the least I can do is
give you something that you can

770
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,320
go away.
And learn from through that

771
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,680
process and an experience that
you'll be able to reflect on and

772
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,520
go, Do you know what?
Eden was an absolute legend.

773
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,000
Yeah.
I'm going to grow a moustache

774
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,200
this year because that cause and
everything that I learned

775
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,040
through that process, they're
doing bloody amazing work.

776
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,640
And I need to be a part of it
because I want to change men's

777
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:40,760
health as well.
Right.

778
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,960
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that so much of what

779
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:48,640
you said around utilising less
human things to allow for more

780
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,080
human interaction at different
stages of the process.

781
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,360
And, and even your point around
gets getting a bit more creative

782
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,080
about how people screen
candidates and things, which

783
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,520
again, let's that humanity shine
through.

784
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,680
It sounds like there is still
quite a lot of emphasis on the

785
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,320
human side behind everything,
which is lovely.

786
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,320
Thanks so much for for all that
Eden.

787
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,160
What's on the horizon for you
and where can people follow what

788
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:14,880
you're up to?
Yeah, for sure.

789
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,120
Well, always follow me on
LinkedIn.

790
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,360
Look horizon for me, like the
creative, right?

791
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,520
Like I, you know, I have
redesigned our employer brand

792
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,160
and really, you know, and, and a
lot of that is around the, the

793
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,120
process of the application and
really inviting people to come

794
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,160
and do good with us.
So I'll be doing a lot of work

795
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,560
around that and a lot of
creative work, which is

796
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,880
exciting.
So follow the Movember page and,

797
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,240
and we're coming into campaigns.
So, you know, you'll be seeing a

798
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:42,880
lot of content coming from
November and it's time to start

799
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,880
planning your moustache or your
or your move for November

800
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,640
challenge.
I have launched a, a podcast.

801
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,200
So Eden Haddock, total talent,
have a search for that on

802
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,800
Spotify or, or Apple.
And, and that's really just sort

803
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,040
of me sharing what's going on in
my world.

804
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,160
And people can learn more about
what's happening in the, in the

805
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,880
talent space.
It's me blathering on for 20

806
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,600
minutes each episode.
It's really about what's

807
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,720
happening and I'm using AI to
summarise it.

808
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:09,680
So there you go.
It's helping, it's helping me

809
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,240
script it.
But yeah, I'm always open to

810
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:15,640
hearing what's going on.
And as candidates like share

811
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,080
more of what's going on, you
know, we want to know and we

812
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,760
want to learn.
And I think if you go through a

813
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:25,440
recruitment process and you
enjoy components of it, share it

814
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,600
with the recruiter.
If there are things that need

815
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,600
improve, share it, right?
I survey everyone, Everyone.

816
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,480
You know, I've got since I
launched this in in March, I've

817
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,280
got 1300 different responses
from candidates and, you know.

818
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,640
Doing something right then?
Yeah, right.

819
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,440
But look at, you know, some of
it's improvement, right?

820
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,680
Some of it was like, you know,
the colour wasn't accessible.

821
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,920
I'm vision impaired and I went
shit as I need to fix that

822
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,280
straight away.
I didn't even realise.

823
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,840
Right.
Like you learn.

824
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,360
You learn along the way.
Yeah.

825
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,320
Awesome, Eden, thank you so much
for joining us.

826
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,040
Thanks mate, it was great.
For more info on what we've

827
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,840
discussed today, check out the
show notes.

828
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,360
If you enjoyed this one, you can
subscribe to Ruined by the

829
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,960
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830
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,320
word by sharing this episode or
leaving a review.

831
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,360
I'm Gareth King, see you next
time.