Social Interaction: has the internet invaded our spaces and damaged our experiences? – Emily Toner

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Welcome to Ruined by the
Internet.

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I'm Gareth King.
Today we're asking, has the

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Internet ruined social
interaction?

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With its constant presence and
insatiable demand for attention,

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the internet's invaded our
offline spaces, diminishing our

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ability to be truly present and
eroding the quality of our in

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person experiences.
To help us understand the costs

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of digital destruction, we're
joined by Emily Toner, A

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clinical psychologist and
international expert in the

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fields of mindfulness, eco
psychology and mental health.

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Emily, thank you so much for
joining us and welcome to the

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show.
Hello, thanks so much for having

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me.
Before we get into it today, can

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you just tell us a bit about the
work that you do and the journey

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that's LED you to this point?
So my background, I'm a clinical

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psychologist and a well being
consultant and I studied back in

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the day.
I wasn't sure what I wanted to

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do, but I knew I wanted to work
with people and I thought

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psychology was a pretty good
place to start.

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And so, yeah, it was really a
passion for learning about the

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science of well being that took
me in the direction of my

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current career, which is really
working with organisations

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around well being, but but
really with the grounding in

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realising the importance of
human emotions and humanness.

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And yeah, this topic today
talking about social integration

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and social relationships is just
so key to the work we do in

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psychology.
And it's bread and butter for

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psychologists, but I think until
you kind of really delve into

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the importance of this stuff, it
can seem like that's sort of a

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soft, like social relationships,
emotions, they feel a bit soft,

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but actually they're crucial for
a living a long and happy life.

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Well, interesting on that point
about it being so crucial for a

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long and happy life, as as you
mentioned, we are going to be

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discussing how technology can
affect our social interactions

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and relationships today.
But before we do, can you first

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explain why that social
connection is so crucial for us

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as humans?
Absolutely.

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So I guess it's, it's really
comes down to the way that our

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brains have been wired and how
we are, we've come from the

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mammal Kingdom, so we are
bonding mammals.

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And there's lots of really great
research about how our, you

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know, regular interactions with
people not only impact our

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happiness levels and our well
being, but they actually help us

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to live longer.
There was a really great study

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done in 2015 and it was looking
at loneliness and socialisa,

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social isolation, so can't speak
as risk factors for mortality.

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And they found that even having
a lack of social integration or

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social relationships in your
life was actually connected to

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the health risk of smoking up to
15 cigarettes a day.

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It's associated with double the
risk of premature death compared

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to obesity.
So all these things that we know

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that are health risks, we don't
really think about loneliness as

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being a health risk, but
actually it's kind of like a

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signal.
Just like your body signals when

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you're hungry or thirsty,
loneliness is just like that.

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It's a signal that we're lacking
something essential for our

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health.
There was one study that found

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your your risk of premature
death increased by 29% if you

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were socially isolated.
And so social connection is not

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just something that is a nice
thing to have.

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It's actually fundamental to who
we are, to our health and well

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being, and to our biology and
into the biology point of

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things.
A really cool study looked at

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sort of biological markets of
loneliness and they actually

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found that people who had really
great social connections and

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they called it this cool thing,
They called it cumulative social

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advantage.
So they defined that as strong

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social connections among family
and friends as well as in sort

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of community settings, maybe
religious settings, sporting

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settings, and they talked about
it sustained over your lifetime.

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So that's what cumulative social
advantage is.

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You have these connections
sustained over your lifetime.

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And I found in this study that
people with higher levels of

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cumulative social advantage had
slower cellular ageing.

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This was like a blood based DNA
thing that they looked at that

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reflects your biological age and
your disease risk and they found

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that you had slower cellular
ageing and they also found lower

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levels of inflammation.
So this is like a physical thing

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that connection creates in our
body.

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And so we are bonding mammals.
We need connection.

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That is that is crazy.
Like one of the things I've been

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I've been aware of for a long
time was loneliness in the

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elderly.
And you know, I've often thought

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around how that can be addressed
through different kind of

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initiatives, but I never knew
about those real health effects.

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And you and you can, you know,
the comparison there to smoking

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15 cigarettes like that, That's
a lot of ciggies, you know, in a

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day.
And I feel like, I feel like

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it's just not talked about much.
I don't I don't hear anywhere

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about the the real health damage
and and risks of of lack of

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socialisation and and social
interaction.

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So living not only a longer
life, but also the the general

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biological health sense is
that's all news to me right now.

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And that is crazy to learn
about.

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So it seems like this is much
more important than just face to

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face interactions with people.
But Speaking of face to face

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interactions, how would you say
that the definition of social

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interaction itself has
potentially changed in the age

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of the Internet and social media
as people get more and more of

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their communication, that kind
of technological FaceTime with

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people rather than doing it in
the real world?

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That's such a good question.
I was actually thinking about

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that earlier today, knowing we
were going to have this chat.

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And it sort of, it occurred to
me that I feel like we've, we're

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slowly, it's slowly slipping
away, this understanding of what

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it feels like to connect.
And it's almost like we're

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replacing what we think
connection is with these kind of

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less satisfying, gratifying ways
of connecting.

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And like, a great example is US
chatting today, we're chatting

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over a video call.
And it's lovely to see your face

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and to, to, to connect and to
see each other's, you know,

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facial expressions.
But there's something that gets

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missed when we're not physically
in a room together.

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And I think that and I'd love to
talk a lot about that today.

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I don't know if you've gone out
recently camping with friends or

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if you've been in an environment
where you're living, you know,

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you're meeting up with with
people in real life and having

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like, you know, I went away with
wife, some girlfriends over the

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weekend and we actually spent
some seriously quality time

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together.
And the quality of the like the

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feeling that I had leaving that
weekend, I was on such a high, I

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felt so re energised and I could
take on the world and and if I'd

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had those chats over the phone
or over text or over video call,

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it just wouldn't be the same.
So I know that there's obviously

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a quality and a length of time
there, but I think that the

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quality of our interactions are
shifting.

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I don't think we're aware as a
Society of how dangerous it is

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to not be considering that kind
of slowly eroding nature of of

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of the different quality of of
time spent.

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And so, you know, I would hate
to think that in the future

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generations grow up thinking
that connection is talking to

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someone in a chat box.
Yeah, that would be awful if

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that's that's that kind of
becomes the default.

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And we know that the way people
can read social cues and there's

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even, you know, you can, you can
misconstrue texts so easily

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because there's no tone of voice
or anything like that, which

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changes the, the communication
and potentially the entire

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interaction and the outcome.
You know, I can't think of how

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many times I've texted like my
partner or she's texted me and

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we've reacted to like what?
And it's something completely

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different because, you know, you
don't have like, a little laugh

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or something.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

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But you know, the other, the
other interesting point there

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you made around camping, Like,
I'm not a gigantic camper.

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Camping's not really my thing,
but I do appreciate, as you

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said, the real slowdown of it.
Like you're just so focused on

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the people there.
It does feel like one of the

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last Oasis away from technology.
I'm just thinking about the

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times, like I've gone camping
and if there's a fire, you know

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what I mean?
Like the fire is like the God of

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the campsite.
You know, everyone's just there

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and then you're just talking.
And it's that most fundamental

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human interaction.
And it's like, I don't know why

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the what it is about camping,
but that seems to be the most

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powerful way of getting everyone
away from this new tech driven

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communication.
But we just mentioned then

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around tone of voice and
expression and body language

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that you get only in a face to
face environment.

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But once you're you know, you're
inserting phones into into

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situations too.
And we've all seen it.

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You can all be out and there
might be people.

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They look like they're either a
couple, they're on a date or

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it's like a parent and they're
kid and they don't look like

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they want to be there, like
they're on the phone, they're

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reading something that's
obviously so much more

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entertaining than the person
that they're with, which is

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which is unfortunate, but beyond
the phone being there is an

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obvious distraction.
How else would you say that?

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Just the constant presence of
them there and the constant risk

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of notification drawing someone
away from the moment.

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How has that changed the dynamic
of our our social situations and

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interactions?
Yeah, this is quite important

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this, this concept around.
Yeah, there's a, there's a funny

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term for it called flubbing,
which is a new term of phone

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snubbing.
But I, I think obviously the

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distraction piece, we all
understand that.

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We know that, you know, those
notifications are constantly

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eroding our executive
functioning skills.

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It was an interesting study done
back in 2011.

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This was a long time ago now.
And they looked at 4 year old

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children and they got them to
watch a really fast paced like

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cartoons, SpongeBob SquarePants
actually.

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And then they got another group
of children to do some drawing

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and they, they then attested
their executive functioning

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skills and they only did this
for 9 minutes.

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And they found that after 9
minutes that the children who

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were in the fast paced
television situation performed

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significantly worse on executive
functioning tasks.

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And that was controlling for
age, the child's attention prior

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to the session and all that.
And actually they even

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controlled for television
exposure.

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So they're basically, that's not
necessarily the Internet, but it

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is a screen.
And there's something that is

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quite eroding on our mental
faculties of, of having, being

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in this digital realm.
And so, but, but going back to

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the question, what what is the
effect of, of being in, you

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know, being around technology
and having people on their

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phones?
Well, well, you know what it

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feels like when you're trying to
talk to someone and they're, you

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know, on their phone.
What's your experience?

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Oh, look, the I'm, I'm not like
a big social media guy in

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general.
So I've, I've got far less

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notifications and things
happening than most people.

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But one of them, the times that
drives me the most insane is if

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I'm out for dinner, you know,
with my fiance and she'll take a

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photo of something in the
restaurant, something there

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looks really nice, like the
decor, the aesthetic.

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And then she'll start adjusting
the photo in front of me.

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You know what I mean?
And I just have to say to her,

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what are you doing?
Can't you do this later on?

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So it's not like she's even
engrossed in a chat in front of

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me.
It's more just the fact that

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she's focused on the phone now.
I don't know if that's my ego

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saying, hey, look how
interesting and important I am,

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but it's more like we're here
for a very limited time to enjoy

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this space and and this meal.
If we're out for a meal, can all

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of that not wait?
And like as you said, I'm not

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even being overly savaged by
someone on their phone in in

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front of me.
Like if I'm out with my friends,

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you know, it, it could be
different.

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Like people will be speaking
with other people.

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If you're in a group and one
person's kind of texting someone

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else, it's not there.
It's not as big a deal.

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But if it is a one on one
situation like that, I think is

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that that's where it feels the
most.

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00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:11,360
What is wrong with me?
Am I not, you know, as

227
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,800
interesting as your phone?
That's exactly it.

228
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,080
And and so that's what the
research shows as well.

229
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,760
It's the research really shows
that especially looking at

230
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,560
children, children that are
engaging with mindless adults

231
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,240
who who aren't actually present
with them paying attention, more

232
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,360
likely to devalue themselves.
And the the process is kind of

233
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,160
similar to what you just said.
Then you said, you know, am I

234
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,880
not that interesting?
And then so that's the first

235
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,120
question that the person being
ignored starts to ask, am I not

236
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,280
that interesting or am I not,
you know, worth your time.

237
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,240
And then what happens next is
the personal attribution, which

238
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,120
is the worst part, comes in and
they start to say, you know, a

239
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,360
little child might start to say,
I'm not worthy of attention.

240
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,840
Am I not that interesting?
I'm not an interesting person.

241
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,080
And that's a psychological kind
of, you know, that that can take

242
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,360
you off on a whole lot of adult
therapy, you know.

243
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,280
Oh.
Yeah, look, that's that sounds,

244
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,120
that sounds awful.
You know, like, and I think, I

245
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,000
think as an adult you can
cognitively make a few logic

246
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,160
leaps there, but I'm just
thinking now and, and maybe you

247
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,640
can help help me understand as a
kid, like they don't have all

248
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,280
the nuances and the various ways
of looking at something other

249
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,920
than I don't know if, if, if
you're, you're five years old

250
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:28,880
and you're seeing your mum on
their phone and you just like

251
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,040
mum likes the phone, mum doesn't
like me, you know, and that must

252
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,240
be awful if it's happening and
compounding over in a long

253
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,120
enough time frame.
Yeah, yeah, the, the, the phone

254
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,960
is, is more important than me.
I mustn't be as important.

255
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,280
And, and this is a really hard
conversation to have because

256
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,480
obviously anyone that has kids,
it's impossible.

257
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:47,840
You can't be present all the
time.

258
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,680
You'd go mad.
And there's going to be lots of

259
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:53,720
times where you do feel like you
can't give your children all the

260
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,080
attention that they need.
And you know, you shouldn't try

261
00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,920
to kill, but but it is an it is
a significant finding that

262
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,120
especially with phones that, you
know, children can can really

263
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,040
start to devalue themselves when
when we don't pay attention.

264
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,480
I'm assuming it doesn't like the
kids had full attention and then

265
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,160
the the parents like I've just
got to, I don't know, send a

266
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,840
text and the kids like breaking
down.

267
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,880
But you know, times I've seen
it, if I'm, if I'm like walking

268
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,880
my dog or something.
And he always, I don't know,

269
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,480
he's obsessed with playgrounds
for some reason.

270
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,440
And if you go past the
playground, there's always a kid

271
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,720
like on the thing saying, Hey,
look at me, look at me and the

272
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,640
parents probably just getting a
little bit of a time out on the

273
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,680
phone.
But it's like quite a jarring

274
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,960
moment when two people are kind
of getting what they need in a

275
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,040
situation that could be
potentially negatively affecting

276
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,560
both of them.
You know, like the parent might

277
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,280
miss out on an amazing moment,
the kids doing and the kids

278
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,400
missing that focus from their
parent in in a moment they want

279
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,920
to show off and be proud of.
But.

280
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:52,840
Yeah.
And then at the same time, the

281
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,680
best, the best advice in
psychology we ever have around

282
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,640
parenting is good enough is, you
know, you should really aim for

283
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,400
good enough parenting.
Because most of the time if

284
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,920
you're good enough, it will
really, you know, you get

285
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,480
children will, will grow up
really well.

286
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,440
And if you try for perfection,
then you're probably going to,

287
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,400
you know, mess them up in a
different way.

288
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,400
Look, I I would imagine that
again, it looks just looks like

289
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,760
nothing's ever good enough for
the for the parent too.

290
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,720
But you we can kind of segue now
into fubbing because it is is a

291
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,720
large part of this.
And I know you've written some

292
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,960
things on fubbing and you
probably know a lot more about

293
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,920
it than what I do.
But would you say that in

294
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,120
regards to fubbing?
And I love saying that word.

295
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,560
It's just fun, you know, would
you say that in terms of, rather

296
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,600
than just as a distraction and
avoiding engaging with the

297
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,760
person that we're with, How are
people using it?

298
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,920
You know, like people, if you
cut you kind of walking down the

299
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,560
street, you see someone over
there that you may not want to

300
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,440
say hi to her.
You don't want to kind of

301
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:50,920
engage.
Like we know that people will

302
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,680
just pull out the phone and, and
use that like, and act like

303
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,160
they're distracted.
So people are doing that for

304
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,120
people.
And then to avoid uncomfortable

305
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,120
silences, even just boredom, it
almost is the the kind of

306
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,640
figurative comfort blanket for
people.

307
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,600
Now, do you think that that's,
that's a result of how

308
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,240
addictive, say the device is?
Or is it more a result of how

309
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,120
easily we we reach a point of
discomfort in our in our

310
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,080
interactions, whether they're
with people or even online, when

311
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,520
we can just like slam people
away if they're making us

312
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,760
uncomfortable?
That's really interesting.

313
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,760
I think this is a really
important conversation around

314
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,280
people finding it very difficult
to sit with discomfort.

315
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,840
And obviously, like, that's
yeah, discomfort doesn't feel

316
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,680
great.
Like who wants to sit with

317
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,720
discomfort?
And, and the other part of this

318
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,200
is boredom as well.
And so I can totally relate to

319
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,840
this.
You know, just last night I had

320
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,560
a moment to myself and you know,
I would, I'd worked really hard

321
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,800
yesterday and then I was eating
dinner and I thought, oh, I'll

322
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,080
watch a movie or something.
And my laptop, the battery was

323
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,360
dead and I couldn't be bothered
getting up and, and, you know,

324
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,000
fixing it, which is pretty lazy.
But but what, what I did was I

325
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,760
was like, well, why do I have to
fill this space with a movie?

326
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,359
Why can't I just enjoy my
dinner?

327
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,000
And but it felt uncomfortable to
sit and eat my dinner, you know,

328
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,000
just by myself enjoying it.
But actually what happened was

329
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,400
my body just started to regulate
a bit.

330
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,560
So because I was actually
becoming a bit, I was, you know,

331
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,440
noticing how I was eating my
food.

332
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,160
I just started to notice that my
breath was slowing down and my

333
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,440
body started to regulate itself.
And that's what happens when we,

334
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,720
we actually allow ourselves time
to be with ourselves, even

335
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,600
though the, we have to get over
that, that hurdle of, of the

336
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,640
discomfort.
If we can kind of allow

337
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,520
ourselves to spend a bit more
time with ourselves, then it's

338
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,720
actually quite regenerating.
Whereas what we often find on

339
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,960
when we watch, when we're
scrolling, you might feel like

340
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,560
you've learnt something, maybe
if you're following the news or

341
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,280
whatever, but you might not feel
better and you might feel a bit

342
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,880
depleted and a bit scattered.
And that's that kind of

343
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,240
executive functioning piece.
God, it's so, so interesting.

344
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,880
I was speaking to someone the
other day about something

345
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,480
similar and the kind of analogy
was there that if you're just

346
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,080
looking at things through a
screen, it's just like junk

347
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,080
food.
Like no one, no one is feeling

348
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,200
good.
Just living on junk food like

349
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,640
feels amazing in the moment, but
then afterwards you're not

350
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,280
feeling so great.
You almost feel a little bit

351
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,120
guilty.
And to your point there, like

352
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:27,280
consuming everything through a
screen rather than, you know,

353
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,120
like you said, slowing down,
being a bit more mindful and

354
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:31,920
experiencing the moment for what
it is.

355
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,280
But even on on that, depending
on what it is, there is just a

356
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,360
sea of phones recording the
entire thing.

357
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,000
And you know, I could be too
old.

358
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,800
I maybe I don't get it.
But it's like if I was out and I

359
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,160
recorded a crap video of a gig
on my phone, like I would never

360
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,040
watch it again.
You know, it's just kind of in

361
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,880
my phone and it's a little bit
of social currency to be like

362
00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:56,960
send to someone and they'll be
like, wow, you were at that

363
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,160
thing.
And and then I think all these

364
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,720
people are like checking the
phone, framing it up, like

365
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,480
adjusting the settings and
things while the event, you

366
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,960
know, whether it's a concert,
sport or whatever it is, is

367
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,000
going on that they're missing
because they're so worried about

368
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,800
how they can then relay on.
They were at this thing and

369
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,280
they're just losing that entire
experience.

370
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,800
Would you say that people having
to document everything, how do

371
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,040
you think that that's affecting
people when they're A, in in a

372
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,480
social environment when they're
doing that, but also B, when

373
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,120
they're in a social environment
where they're not doing that and

374
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:34,520
they're not kind of on and
playing this character?

375
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,000
Good question.
When you're seeing that your

376
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,520
life through the screen as
opposed to experiencing it, it's

377
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:42,880
a different experience of your
life.

378
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,160
And so it's a very different
experience of a concert through

379
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,000
that small square space as
opposed to being there, feeling

380
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,640
the the sounds and the senses
and feeling the vibration of

381
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,520
the, the music into your, you
know, into your chest, you know,

382
00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,680
that's kind of the feeling of
being at a concert.

383
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,920
And I guess that the challenge
with that is that.

384
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,240
Obviously when we're, when we're
recording, we're, we're doing it

385
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,200
for people have different
reasons.

386
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,000
So some people might be doing it
just for their own memories.

387
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,880
The sad thing is, you know, the
best way to form memories is to

388
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,720
be present to begin with.
And you might also be doing it

389
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,200
for your own social status to,
to then share online.

390
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,280
And then other people might be
doing it literally kind of for

391
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,520
work, like, you know, maybe
they're, they have, you know, a

392
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,200
social following and, and they
have to document things.

393
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:34,680
So the purpose it becomes a
striving type experience as a, a

394
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,600
doing a doing this as opposed to
a beingness.

395
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,680
And I think we are all now in a
constant state of doing this and

396
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,000
kind of having to respond at all
times to all sorts of, you know,

397
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,760
there's like 20 different ways
that people can contact you now.

398
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,760
You know, it's like, where did
that person?

399
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,360
I don't remember that.
I know I need to get back to

400
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:56,440
that person but I can't remember
what channel it was on.

401
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,720
Yeah.
I mean, that's a great point.

402
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,760
And I've not actually heard that
phrase the state of doing this

403
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,960
before.
I'd love to to spend some more

404
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320
time on that.
Can you just expand a bit more

405
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,360
on what that state of of doing
this is?

406
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:09,920
Because that sounds really
interesting.

407
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:13,040
The way that I would think about
it is kind of a a task

408
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,280
orientated focus.
So instead of it kind of ties in

409
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,360
with this notion of striving to
to do something, to be something

410
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:24,560
to achieve something, as opposed
to beingness, which is there's

411
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,160
no striving.
We're just experiencing the

412
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,640
state of, you know, aliveness
and we're just experiencing what

413
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,560
it's like to be here in this
moment, connecting and breathing

414
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,240
and, you know, which sounds very
woo woo, but on a more

415
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,400
practical.
Yeah.

416
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,880
But on a practical kind of note,
this kind of this doing attitude

417
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,240
is actually incredibly
exhausting and and it really

418
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,040
leads to burnout because our
brains can't be constantly in a

419
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,520
state of striving.
They really can't.

420
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,720
It's just like when you go to
the gym and you do, you know,

421
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,360
you work out and then you go
back the next day.

422
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,880
You might do your arms, so you
do your legs, then you do, you

423
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,400
know.
But any good trainer will always

424
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:04,880
tell you that you need rest
days.

425
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,800
And it's on the rest days where
your muscle actually grows.

426
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,800
And so the brain is just an
organ that needs rest moments

427
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,480
and rest days.
And unfortunately with the state

428
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,480
of this constant on doing this,
it's really hard for our brains

429
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,840
to have rest days and so, or
even rest moments throughout a

430
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,720
day.
And in fact, I guess we're

431
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,640
talking, we're getting more into
presence now, but but just micro

432
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,200
moments of presence throughout
the day has a huge impact on,

433
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,400
you know, just taking a moment
to stop, take a breath and just

434
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,240
literally take 3 seconds to
notice how you're feeling.

435
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,960
Well then just redirect you in a
better direction of well being

436
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,080
for the next 10 minutes.
You, you mentioned the, the, you

437
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,160
know, the importance of rest
days for the brain.

438
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,840
What happens to us, you know,
whether it's psychologically or

439
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,160
even the way that we we can deal
with other people if we don't

440
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,400
have those rest days.
I think most people can relate

441
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,200
to this.
Like we, we kind of know what

442
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,560
happens.
We, we burn out the biggest

443
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,200
state, you know, anxiety and
depression are absolute leading

444
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,000
causes now of not just mental
ill health, but actually

445
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,360
complete physical ill health.
Like depression is now the

446
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:18,560
leading cause of illness even
over heart disease and physical

447
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,840
problems.
So our, our societies are

448
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,360
becoming more anxious, more
depressed, and we're struggling

449
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,520
to, to kind of navigate this,
you know, tech based environment

450
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,000
and we're struggling to, to set
our own boundaries when they're

451
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,320
not put in place structurally
for us.

452
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,440
And you mentioned before phone
addiction.

453
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,440
And I would actually probably
being as a critical psych, I

454
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,600
probably wouldn't use the term
addiction because when, you

455
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,760
know, when we work with
addiction, it's got a whole raft

456
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,440
of issues that are much, much
more challenging than than that.

457
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:55,040
But it is 100% phone dependence
and being dependent and, and

458
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,320
actually, you know, pulling it
out when we feel uncomfortable.

459
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,760
And you can imagine that the
person that pulls their phone

460
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,400
out when they feel uncomfortable
start scrolling.

461
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,840
They then impacting their
cognition in a negative way in

462
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,960
terms of executive dysfunction.
They're also impacting their

463
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,800
health and well being as opposed
to someone who stops and says,

464
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,280
oh, I feel uncomfortable and I
have the urge to pick up my

465
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,960
phone, but instead I'm gonna
just sit.

466
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,000
Just, I'm just going to stay
here for three seconds and take

467
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,000
a breath and actually just ask
myself, why do I feel this way?

468
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,680
What is this uncomfortable
feeling?

469
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,920
Can I name it?
Can I give myself permission to

470
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,000
feel not OK right now?
Maybe there's stuff going on

471
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,240
around that.
That means that it's absolutely

472
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:47,560
OK to feel irritated or flat or
angry or depressed or whatever

473
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,720
it is.
That is a probably a much better

474
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,120
way of of putting it.
You know, phone dependence

475
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,640
because it's the depending on
the phone as the problem solver

476
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,080
for so many different
situations.

477
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,280
And, and one of those, as you've
alluded to, there was avoidance

478
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,640
of people.
And obviously it's, it's giving

479
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,760
us a way out of having to
encounter strangers and have

480
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,720
these spontaneous interactions
with strangers, which you never

481
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,600
know where any of those are
going to go, what conversation

482
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,520
you might end up involved in,
what you're going to learn about

483
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,600
someone who you might meet,
etcetera, etcetera.

484
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,640
So obviously we're, we're
cutting off one of those great

485
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,160
exploratory things about being a
person out in the world with

486
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,480
other people and it's cutting us
off from knowing what's

487
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,960
happening in our wider
communities at large.

488
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,720
So if we're not connected to our
wider communities, you know,

489
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,880
because we're so focused on this
one little device, you know

490
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,200
what, if we break those
connections and don't try and

491
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,680
repair them, what can happen
then?

492
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,160
This is something I think is
really powerful to talk about

493
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,000
and and there's a researcher
called Barbara Fredrickson who's

494
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,800
doing some really awesome
research around social

495
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,840
interaction, distal
relationships.

496
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,200
So not just not just our close
relationships.

497
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,240
I feel like we all know that
close relationships are

498
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,800
important, familiar
relationships, romantic

499
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,680
relationships, but what she's
looking at is like the furthest

500
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,600
relationships in our lives.
So the, the kind of the broader

501
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,920
community relationships, the
micro moments of connection you

502
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,520
might have when you walk down
the street and you smile at

503
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,440
someone and you say hi.
And she's is really interested

504
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,360
in that.
And it's a really useful, it's

505
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:19,360
an important thing to be talking
about in the current era 2025,

506
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:24,120
because her sort of very
interesting take is that our

507
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,960
connection to our broader
community as a whole might

508
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,480
influence how trusting we are of
society as a whole.

509
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,400
And, and the reason for that is
that if you think of your local

510
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,560
community around you, that's
kind of a yardstick for how the

511
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,560
world is.
And so your close relationships,

512
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,280
we all live in little bubbles,
bubbles and silos.

513
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,120
And they're not a good example
of the world as a whole.

514
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:52,000
But when you really think about
your community, your broader

515
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,600
area that you live or even
broader still, this can be a

516
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,240
really good yardstick of how the
world is.

517
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,560
And so the less time you, I
don't know if you've ever

518
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,600
noticed this, but I've always
noticed that the less time I

519
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,840
spend in other people's company,
the more kind of you start to

520
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,080
judge them, I find.
So this has happened to me

521
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,640
before with friends where I
haven't seen them for six

522
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,720
months.
And I start to maybe, maybe

523
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,760
create some judgments in my mind
very, you know, not hardcore

524
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,640
ones, but just subtle judgments.
And then when I see them in

525
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,080
person, I remember all their
qualities and their energy and

526
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,760
I, all those judgments
dissipate.

527
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,280
And I don't know if you can
relate to that, but I.

528
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,720
Didn't totally and and it's it's
very true like we all we all do

529
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,160
it and I either catch myself out
about it and and I think to

530
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:45,480
myself, you're judging scenarios
and stories that you've created

531
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,640
about a person.
So you're judging him on a

532
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,040
figment of my own imagination
that actually hasn't even

533
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,520
happened.
But where, where I guess my my

534
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,280
brain goes with this now is if
you are avoiding all those

535
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,880
people, as you're kind of
touched on there, you're

536
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,240
creating an entire societal
situation that may or may not

537
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,920
even exist, which must be
incredibly damaging mentally for

538
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,000
people.
That's a really cool way of

539
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,960
putting it.
But yeah, absolutely.

540
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,640
And so when you think about our
general lack of connection to

541
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,520
our local communities these
days, and then you think about

542
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,440
algorithms of of social media
which are really biassing us

543
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,160
towards certain emotionally
activating content, really

544
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,160
algorithms, you know, run off
rage and fear.

545
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,400
It really seems like that
combination seems to be leading

546
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,160
us as society into more divided
and siloed places.

547
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,320
And so this is a real fear that
I have and a concern that we

548
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,040
should be address, you know,
thinking about and addressing

549
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,600
that community engagement,
community outreach.

550
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:56,080
It's not a fuzzy lovely, you
know, where we're seeing, it's

551
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,640
actually the, the, the sort of
the fabric that our society's

552
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,560
built on to be able to to
connect with each other, to see

553
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,600
other people as humans and to
see their strengths and

554
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,560
weaknesses.
And one of the big things we

555
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,480
haven't touched on today, but
the biggest thing I think we get

556
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,680
from being in a physical space
with another person is we get a

557
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,880
physical feeling, a shared sense
of resonance.

558
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,400
And so this is work that Barbara
Frederickson again has been

559
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,600
doing around something she calls
positivity resonance.

560
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,560
And so she defines this as micro
moments of connection

561
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,480
characterised by having a shared
positive feeling together.

562
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,800
So when you laugh together with
someone or when you do something

563
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,440
silly or when you talk about
something that you care about,

564
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,280
it's not just a cognitive
engagement, it's actually a

565
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,320
physical feeling, a resonance or
a positive affect, she calls it.

566
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,560
And this actually happens when
we actually engage in real life

567
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,480
with people.
There's research that shows that

568
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,880
we have this sort of biological
synchronicity that happens.

569
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:09,280
So the physical state of being
with other people allows us to

570
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,800
feel things.
Whereas whereas, and the great

571
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,200
example of this is when I'm
working in, when I run well

572
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,400
being workshops in, in sort of
corporate spaces, I've often in

573
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,800
the past, I've often done an
exercise created by a mentor of

574
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,800
mine called Craig Hassett.
And this, this exercise is

575
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,800
really telling.
What you get people to do is you

576
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,920
get them to stand next to each
other.

577
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,000
So one person is going to share
something that's really like a

578
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,400
proudest moment of their life.
And then their partner and their

579
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,280
partner is instructed to listen
while at the same time doing

580
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,000
something on their phone.
And, and you're, you're really

581
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,120
saying now, I don't want you to
pretend to do something on your

582
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,520
phone.
Like I'm sure you've got an

583
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,560
email to send or a message to
write, like actually do

584
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,320
something on your phone.
But at the same time, I want you

585
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,200
to listen to what this person,
their proudest moment.

586
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,960
And so they do this.
And it's hilarious because

587
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,840
everyone like the energy in the
room just drops and everyone

588
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,120
just like you can tell it's
awful in for everyone involved.

589
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,880
And then when you debrief them,
you say, OK, So what was it like

590
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,280
for you to share your proudest
moment?

591
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,920
And the person says, Oh, look, I
actually, I kind of forgot what

592
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,760
I was saying.
Like I couldn't actually think

593
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,360
about the scenario because I, I,
I couldn't get into a rhythm

594
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,440
because there was nothing there
to meet me.

595
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,160
And I actually was struggling to
even communicate.

596
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,240
And then the other person says,
that was really stressful for

597
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,120
me.
I was literally switching back

598
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,800
and forth between both the
conversation and my phone.

599
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,920
People say I started typing what
they were saying into my text to

600
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,200
my partner, you know, like they
literally couldn't multitask.

601
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,280
Oh, that's, that's really
interesting around the, the

602
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,560
proudest moment, you know,
because it is, it is a moment of

603
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,360
vulnerability, because it's like
if you're, if you're trying to

604
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,280
recount your proudest moment,
like you are putting yourself

605
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,080
personally out there to be
judged on what you consider your

606
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,200
own proudest moment.
And so I can imagine if you're

607
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,880
doing that, obviously not in a
role play situation, But if you

608
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,880
are doing something like that
in, in real life, whether it's

609
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,280
your proudest moment or
something that you've been

610
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,440
thinking or anything that's kind
of putting your heart on your

611
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,960
sleeve and it looks like
someone's just, I don't know,

612
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,160
scrolling through Instagram or
something while you're doing it.

613
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,840
That must be even more
devastating than just knowing

614
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,640
that they could be texting
someone.

615
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,400
Absolutely.
And So what happens is we then

616
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,920
say to them, OK, so you know,
that's interesting that actually

617
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,680
this is quite common that that
if you're wanting to be, if

618
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,920
you're really wanting to get
some information from someone

619
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,480
and, and actually really
understand a detailed

620
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,520
explanation, you actually really
need to be present.

621
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,000
Because if you're not paying
attention, then they can feel

622
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,680
it.
And it actually stops them from

623
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,040
even being able to.
It's almost like a cognitive

624
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,800
block for them even to be able
to continue talking, which is a

625
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,160
fascinate.
And I can, I don't know if you

626
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,400
can remember being in that
situation, but I can think of

627
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,720
lots of times where I sort of
just, I just trail off, you

628
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,000
know?
Yeah.

629
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,800
Yeah, look, this, this heaps of
times I think about, you know, I

630
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,080
might be explaining something
that's happened or something

631
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,680
that I've been thinking.
And as soon as you feel like

632
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,200
that you that that person's
attention might be on something

633
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,120
else straight away your brain is
like, oh, this is boring.

634
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,360
They don't give a shit.
And then it's just like, why am

635
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,240
I telling them?
And you know, I know that's how

636
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,800
I react.
I'm just, I'll just stop the

637
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,120
story and and go and do
something else.

638
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,120
So yeah, and and that's me doing
it just in a normal moment, not

639
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,120
even where I'm trying.
I'm really like trying to be

640
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,960
vulnerable or something.
So that, God, that sounds awful

641
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,240
as a task, but like what a good
demonstration of of the damage

642
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,440
that it can do.
It it is excellent.

643
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,360
And then the second part is even
more interesting because then

644
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,960
the second part, you say, OK,
I'm gonna give you a chance to

645
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,440
redeem yourselves, which is
really mean because, you know,

646
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,680
you made them do it the first
time.

647
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,000
But you say, OK, now this time
you're going to put your phone

648
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,520
away.
And this time I'm going to give

649
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,680
you some very specific
instructions.

650
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,800
So person, you're going to share
your experience of your proudest

651
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,120
moment.
You're going to share it again

652
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,720
because I guarantee they didn't
really hear it the first time.

653
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,120
And the and the person
listening, I want you to do a

654
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,560
few things.
I want you to pay attention to

655
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,159
the intonation of the person's
voices they're speaking.

656
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,560
I want you to try and really see
if you can notice the emotion in

657
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,239
their face or in their in their
words and focus on, you know,

658
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,639
try to see their excitement or
whatever it is that they're

659
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,000
sharing.
And so then we debrief this

660
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,199
exercise and the energy in the
room just like lifts so much for

661
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,400
this practise.
Like everyone's talking and it's

662
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,320
really high vibe and you can
just feel it in the room change.

663
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,639
And then when you debrief this
whole exercise, the biggest

664
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,440
thing that people come to
realise is, is that in the first

665
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,520
scenario, when you're talking
and you're getting ignored and

666
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,639
when there's a device in between
you both, what happens is that

667
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:49,560
the person does take in the
information and they're able to

668
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,880
share some facts about the
experience, but they don't feel

669
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,960
anything right.
So it's a, it is a cognitive

670
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,880
exchange only.
But when you do it again, they

671
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,440
start to say, I could feel the
pride you had for your child

672
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,280
when you when you saw them do
this or when you did this.

673
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,440
Then they say, I could literally
feel their excitement.

674
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,720
I could feel their joy.
And this is what Barbara

675
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,240
Fredrickson talks about as
positivity resonance.

676
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,600
And this is what is getting lost
through digital interaction, I

677
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,040
feel.
And that's where this eroding of

678
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,800
our social definitions, I think
is, is, is it's moving into a

679
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,240
cognitive exchange as opposed to
a connecting physical exchange.

680
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,080
That makes so much sense.
And as I've mentioned a little

681
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,200
while ago, I'll just say again,
like the saddest thing to me is

682
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,480
a parent and like their
teenager, you know, teenager is

683
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,320
difficult to begin with and you
know, you don't know what

684
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,640
they're doing.
But a parent and their teenager

685
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,800
out trying to have a meal and
they just both look like they

686
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,240
don't want to be there.
And as you said, even if they

687
00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:01,120
are hearing something while
they're on the device, they're

688
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,040
not feeling anything.
You know, when I think about it,

689
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,160
it's almost like it makes
hearing that person's story or

690
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,600
thoughts just a chore, just a,
just an effort exchange rather

691
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,920
than something that you're
actually interested in doing is

692
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,480
something you've been made to
do.

693
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,280
And now I think about it like
that, that's even worse.

694
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,360
If people are on a date and
they're doing it, it's like, OK,

695
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,680
the date can go bad.
But if you're, if you're, if

696
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,640
you're out, you know, you're
you're like 16 and you're out

697
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,720
with say your dad, you're trying
to have dinner and you're not

698
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:30,720
interested in each other like
that is how do you get away from

699
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:33,000
that?
You know, like that's so much

700
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,720
worse.
It is and and that's a great

701
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:38,000
example.
I can, I can understand, yeah,

702
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,840
I've definitely can relate to
that and I've also witnessed

703
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,640
that.
But on the positive side that

704
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,840
the, the research also talks
about just micro moments of

705
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,080
connection throughout the day
are actually almost probably

706
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,680
more beneficial to us than these
big in depth romantic gestures

707
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,320
of, of, you know, so, so really
in order to fill up our bonding

708
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,920
mammal cup our social brains and
feel rejuvenated through social

709
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,560
connection.
Sometimes it's as simple as

710
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,000
going to the local coffee shop
and chatting to your barista and

711
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,400
you know, for a couple of
seconds or it's making an effort

712
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,200
to make eye contact with people
as you walk past and give them a

713
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,280
smile on the street.
It's, it's actually being out in

714
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,760
the world and, and being into
getting it out into our

715
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,560
community and having these micro
moments of connection.

716
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,480
And that is what is you know,
that is what actually this this

717
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,360
term, social integration is one
of the biggest predictors of how

718
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,320
long we live.
And so and so being part of not

719
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,960
just so if you're someone who
was listening to this and is

720
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,320
thinking, well, I don't have
that many close relationships

721
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,960
and I don't like my family.
And I'm, you know, you start to

722
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,760
feel a bit depressed by all this
chat.

723
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,760
It's actually the micro moments
of connection that anyone can do

724
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,000
that actually will will
replenish and and fulfil you.

725
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,600
Right, That's, that's super
interesting to hear, especially

726
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,840
just from a personal level
because he's a, he's a little

727
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,840
anecdote.
Like a lot of people love Uber

728
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,640
eats and you know, like those
things that will bring all your,

729
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,120
all their food straight to your
door.

730
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,560
So you never need to go out and,
and see anybody.

731
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,560
You just get it.
And I've had so many people tell

732
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,440
me that I'm mad because I, I'd
love going to the shop and

733
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,560
ordering it and speaking to the
person and standing in the shop

734
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,560
and waiting there for 20 minutes
and just kind of see what's

735
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,640
going on in the world, hear
people doing things.

736
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,880
And I love that.
And it's all strangers to me.

737
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,240
And, and now it makes so much
more sense that it's those micro

738
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:36,560
moments that are actually
helping replenish.

739
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,680
I thought I just was interested
in talking to people, but now it

740
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,560
feels like there's a there's a
much bigger reason why, you

741
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,400
know, maybe I actually enjoy
doing that.

742
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,920
But while we are talking those
micro moments of, you know,

743
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,480
connection, one of the things
driven by technology that that

744
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,880
is starting to concern me and
I've seen some awful moments

745
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,600
about it was the rise of AI and
these large language models and

746
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,120
people turning to them for not
only companionship and, and

747
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,720
friendship and even
relationships, but people

748
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:09,080
turning to it for therapy.
And there's been some awful

749
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,920
situations that I've already
read about that have come out of

750
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,400
that.
A Like what are the risks of

751
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,520
people finding their moments of
of connection through things

752
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,560
like that in the immediate term,
but B also in the long term of

753
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,560
this kind of solo interaction
with a digital connection rather

754
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,400
than a human one?
That's a great question.

755
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,760
I actually think that AI sort of
therapy tools can actually be

756
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,360
quite useful for certain people
who maybe maybe you've got

757
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,280
social anxiety, you're not about
to go out and, you know, meet

758
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:44,800
people.
And it's much, much better to

759
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,240
get some insights from someone
from the company of your own

760
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:49,400
home.
But what I would argue is that

761
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,120
you're not actually getting
connection there.

762
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:55,360
What you're getting is insight
and insight's really useful.

763
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,240
So it is helpful to to kind of
go back and forth with a large

764
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:03,800
data set that can tell you
information that might be useful

765
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,200
and relevant to you, but it
isn't actually in my, in my, my

766
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,120
book.
I would say that isn't you're

767
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:10,960
not getting connection, you're
getting insight.

768
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,160
And so I would be looking for
connection elsewhere.

769
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:18,360
Now that makes sense.
And I guess, I guess what kind

770
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,800
of concerned me about that is
you know, when I've, I've read

771
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,280
stories of someone that might
have, as you said, they're

772
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:29,080
lonely or, or whatever and they
turn to chat bots or large

773
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,760
language models as their
companion.

774
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,160
And then, you know, you're
eventually going to have a break

775
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,000
up and and it must feel like
you've you were one to one with

776
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,760
this thing and it you, it was
getting all of your attention.

777
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,520
It was hearing everything you
were saying.

778
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,800
The only thing that's kind of
acknowledging you in that way

779
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,280
and then if it might turn on you
and it just feels so much worse.

780
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,160
But it it was a good point there
that you raised around using it

781
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,720
to find insights and and maybe
things you may not realise about

782
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:00,320
yourself or whether you're using
it for just fact finding or or

783
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,760
even even therapy.
What would be some good examples

784
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,760
of of people using those those
tools in a therapy sense?

785
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,960
Like it could be talking about
patterns that you're, that you

786
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,080
have in your life and you could,
you know, be, be asking why

787
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,000
might this be occurring?
What are some practical

788
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,360
strategies I can bring into my
life?

789
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,000
How can I, how can I create a
behaviour plan to do that?

790
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,520
But, but going back to the, the,
the challenge, I think the, the

791
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,520
one thing I have noticed that is
a problem is, is that what

792
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,120
happens when you get a perfect
response from an AI generated

793
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,680
person, a perfectly empathic,
perfectly worded, validating

794
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,920
response, is that it starts to
skew your idea of what other

795
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,760
people should be doing.
And so often people can feel,

796
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,880
start to feel like, well, why
doesn't my partner validate me

797
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,000
the way that you do?
Or, you know, and it can

798
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,160
actually, I think we need to be
mindful that we're all human and

799
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,560
that we're not actually able to
always be perfect.

800
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,680
So that is the response you will
get.

801
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,000
It's good to learn how to
communicate effectively, but you

802
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,560
can't expect that.
That's super interesting.

803
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,840
And it's made me realise that I
have seen it and read about

804
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,960
things where, I don't know,
maybe it could be like a wife

805
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,360
saying my husband doesn't get me
as well as this chatbot does or

806
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,360
vice versa.
And and I look at that and I'm

807
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,440
like, this seems insane to me.
She's just going to take the

808
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,880
data you're giving it and give
you like a real factual answer

809
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,720
rather than those nuances of a
person which I'm sure can bring

810
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:29,680
its own problems.
Well, the chat bot doesn't have

811
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,280
its own triggers, its own life
experience, its own issues, its

812
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,840
own physical experience of you
in the moment to to go back on.

813
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,200
And so there is definitely a
problem where chat bots or, you

814
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,720
know, AI systems definitely a
train to kind of be agreeable.

815
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,320
So they're definitely a train to
to kind of say, yeah, I can't

816
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,960
believe you did that.
And like, it can send you off in

817
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,640
a on a route of actually
validation that maybe isn't

818
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,400
accurate.
It isn't accurate critical

819
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,920
thinking.
Maybe you need to actually own

820
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,960
your own.
Maybe there was something that

821
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:05,680
you need to look at for
yourself.

822
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:08,480
And so that also could be an
issue that that we're starting

823
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:09,960
to see.
Yeah.

824
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,720
And it makes total sense that
that validation there just kind

825
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:16,360
of reinforces that you were
correct in doing whatever you

826
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,360
did, which then as as we can
understand, you take that

827
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,280
offline into the real world.
It's just kind of giving you

828
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,360
more ammunition to fight against
real people with, which can make

829
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,120
the real people problem even
worse.

830
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,640
But we, we've been talking
around, you know, the way that

831
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:39,360
technology can affect and impact
our relationships situations,

832
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,360
you know, there's a lot of
negative ways, but as you've

833
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,640
alluded to, there's a lot of
positive ways as well,

834
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:47,040
especially around people that
might have social anxiety.

835
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,680
So in those situations, beyond
the ease of communication, how

836
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,080
does the convenience of of
digital comms, whether it's text

837
00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,000
or or voice or even video chat,
how does that impact our

838
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,960
willingness to make that effort
to get out and see people in

839
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,840
real life?
I can, I can understand

840
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,600
obviously if you've got social
anxiety that can kind of break

841
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,920
the ice a little bit and connect
you with people that you may not

842
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,560
have been able to encounter
otherwise.

843
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,960
Absolutely, there's so many
examples of I mean we've talked

844
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,120
about a lot of of cons, but
there are huge amount of pros

845
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,200
from the kind of we're not
getting.

846
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,640
So as long as we're recognising
we're not getting the felt

847
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,960
positivity resonance experience
necessarily from digital

848
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,240
interaction, but we are getting
information, we're getting

849
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:34,960
connection in a broader sense.
Great example would be, you

850
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,120
know, the more recent activism
in Gaza, the flotilla and the

851
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,200
social media coverage of that,
which then allowed people to in

852
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,280
person go to the airport and
greet these, you know, heroes as

853
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,160
they come back off the flight.
And, and that was organising

854
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,400
and, and getting groups of
people together over common

855
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,880
causes.
And so there's an amazing amount

856
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,560
of organisation that can happen
through through connecting

857
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,080
online.
I've got my own personal example

858
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,720
of a community that was started
during COVID.

859
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,880
I was running a online guided
meditation every weekday and it

860
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,840
started off as just being a
digital experience where people

861
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,920
just came 8:30 to 9:00 every
weekday.

862
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,840
And eventually we got, we've got
thousands and thousands of

863
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,760
people tuning in and doing this
meditation.

864
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,080
And then after time, what
happened was these people

865
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,240
started to connect further.
It was just through a social

866
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:24,800
media platform, but they started
to actually direct message each

867
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,800
other.
And then they would actually

868
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,680
start to text each other and
then they started to meet up.

869
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,640
And so now this community that
started five years ago regularly

870
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,320
meets up a couple of times a
year.

871
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,800
We we go catch up in person.
And so this is a great example

872
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,880
of of people that never would
have met each other in a million

873
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,840
years if they had it, and then
that community growing into

874
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,080
something even more profound.
No, that's a great example and

875
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,160
it goes back to what we
mentioned a little while ago.

876
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,400
If people aren't kind of
interacting with their

877
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,720
communities in the world, and
perhaps they're not going to,

878
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,360
but maybe this is an even better
option to find a community that

879
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,520
you've already got something in
common with everybody there to

880
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,800
to almost remove one barrier to
entry for new friendships and

881
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,720
and relationships, etcetera,
which will then allow you to

882
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:14,520
build an even stronger real
world community.

883
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,200
So when I think about it like
that, and they may be doing it

884
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,000
through digital, Star is
probably a better way to go to

885
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,360
find your people, as they say.
Yeah.

886
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,600
Absolutely.
Yeah, OK.

887
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,480
But we've talked about the
effects and and things for

888
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,600
people to be aware of when
whether it's technology in a in

889
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,240
a social situation or why
they're using it, how they're

890
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:38,720
using it.
But what would you say are some

891
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:43,240
practical strategies people can
adopt just in general to make

892
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:45,880
sure they've got healthier
social interactions?

893
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,720
How do we balance, you know,
online engagement with

894
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:54,440
meaningful offline engagement?
All right, well, I think I think

895
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,400
the topic that going back to the
concept of micro connection is

896
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,440
really powerful.
So I would argue that

897
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,760
understanding the research and
everything we shared today and

898
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,560
realising that your, you know,
your mental, emotional and

899
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,680
physical health depend on social
integration.

900
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,640
And when you realise that it
might just spare you on to go

901
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,520
for that walk and and to
actually say hi to someone as

902
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,720
opposed to just keeping your
head down.

903
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,960
So I would say we can all
prioritise just micro connection

904
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:25,800
out in our world.
And wouldn't the world be a

905
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,840
nicer place if everyone you
know?

906
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,880
I actually live up in Byron Bay
and I moved here mainly because

907
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:36,120
it has a feeling of of a smaller
town where people all interact.

908
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,200
You would never walk past
someone on the beach and not

909
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,040
acknowledge them and say hi.
And coming from Melbourne

910
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,960
originally, you know you could
walk around the city and not

911
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,200
ever meet eye contact with
anyone.

912
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,240
Yeah, totally alone in a crowd.
And it's so funny that you say

913
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:54,120
that like IIA little while ago
moved to, I guess what you could

914
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,720
call the suburbs.
You know, I moved out of the

915
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:59,840
city and, and the first thing we
noticed when we moved here is

916
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,480
like everyone you pass in the
street will say hi to you.

917
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,520
And it's so nice just to be
like, I remember speaking to my

918
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,680
friends, like, what is it like
living in the suburbs now?

919
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,280
I'm like, it's amazing
everywhere you go, like you're

920
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,480
just saying hi to people, you're
having a chat with people.

921
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,320
Like it feels so much more
natural, whereas, as you said,

922
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,400
living in in the city, it's so
forced, like everyone is trying

923
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,000
to avoid it.
But as we look to the future,

924
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,520
what gives you hope that, you
know, we can strengthen and

925
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,720
maintain all of those social
connections, whether it's on an

926
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:36,800
individual level, on a community
level, and even kind of claw

927
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,600
back some of that potential
damage that might have been done

928
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:44,280
as we figured out over the last
20 years how technology

929
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:46,800
interacts with our social
environments.

930
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:50,800
Good, good place to end I what
gives me hope is actually the

931
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,240
generations coming up.
I know a lot of people talk a

932
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:56,000
lot about the next generations
as being really device heavy,

933
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,360
but my experience is actually
that they're able to integrate

934
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,400
technology in a way, but they're
also pretty aware of some of the

935
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,280
pitfalls.
And, and I actually, you know,

936
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,440
research in America showed that
social media usage has gone down

937
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,920
in the last little while.
So what what is happening is

938
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,360
people are actually rejecting.
They're, they're aware this

939
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,080
doesn't feel good.
They're starting to reject these

940
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,760
forms of connection and they're
opting for other ways of doing

941
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,040
things.
You know, there's different

942
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,240
cultures there's cafes in, I
know there's a good awesome

943
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:28,080
cafes in Sweden where devices
are banned.

944
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,320
You know how many devices and
people love them.

945
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,160
They're going there to play
cards and to connect and to, you

946
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,920
know, play games.
And I I'm excited about what the

947
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,320
next generations are going to
create when they because they're

948
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,040
aware of the the troubles and
and they don't want to be stuck

949
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,120
on screens all day.
That again, that makes that

950
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,640
makes sense because I'd also
read about the social media use

951
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,640
Pete, I think I mean, was it
2022 or it's been maybe on a

952
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,960
little downward slope.
So that could be good.

953
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,280
But even just speaking to people
in in real life, and it seems

954
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,240
like more and more people are
just had enough.

955
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,960
I'll be interested to see what
happens if and if that brings us

956
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,080
all a little bit back closer
together.

957
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,680
Thanks so much for that, Emily.
What have you got coming up and

958
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,680
where can people follow what
you're up to?

959
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,600
Yes, in my, my website is Emily
dot com.

960
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,840
So I I run workshops and courses
for corporates.

961
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,160
I also am moving into I do a lot
of work with environmentalists

962
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,120
and and teams facing around
climate change and climate

963
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,960
grief, and so have a new
programme called climate

964
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,720
coverage for teens, which I'm
really excited about launching.

965
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,600
But I'm also I have my own
private practise as well.

966
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,040
So I also see individual
clients, which I love only a day

967
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,240
or two a week.
But if anyone wants to to

968
00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:43,040
connect and have a chat,
probably the best way to find me

969
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:44,680
is from my website.
Emily, Tony.

970
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,240
Com Awesome Emily, thank you so
much.

971
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,480
Thanks so much for having me.
For more info on what we've

972
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,280
discussed today, check out the
show notes.

973
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,800
If you enjoyed this one, you can
subscribe to Ruined by the

974
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,400
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975
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,760
word by sharing this episode or
leaving a review.

976
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,800
I'm Gareth King, see you next
time.