Social Interaction: has the internet invaded our spaces and damaged our experiences? – Emily Toner

Gareth King (00:32)

Emily, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the show.

Emily (00:35)

Hello, thanks so much for having me.

Gareth King (00:37)

Before we get into it today, can you just tell us a bit about the work that you do and the journey that's led you to this point?

Emily (00:42)

So, my background, I'm a clinical psychologist and a wellbeing consultant. And I studied back in the day, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to work with people. And I thought psychology was a pretty good place to start. And so, yeah, it was really a passion for learning about the science of wellbeing that took me in the direction of my current career, which is really working with organisations around wellbeing.

But really with the grounding in realising the importance of human emotions and humanness and yeah, this topic today, talking about social integration and social relationships is just so key to the work we do in psychology and it's bread and butter for psychologists. But I think until you kind of really delve into the importance of this stuff, it can seem like that's sort of a soft, like social relationships, emotions, they feel a bit soft, but actually they're crucial for living a long and happy life.

Gareth King (01:39)

Well, interesting on that point about it being so crucial for a long and happy life, as you mentioned, we are going to be discussing how technology can affect our social interactions and relationships today. But before we do, can you first explain why that social connection is so crucial for us as humans?

Emily (01:55)

Absolutely. So I guess it's, it really comes down to the way that our brains have been wired and how we are, we've come from the mammal kingdom. So we are bonding mammals and there's lots of really great research about how, you know, regular interactions with people not only impact our happiness levels and our wellbeing, but they actually help us to live longer.

There was a really great study done in 2015 and it was looking at loneliness and social isolation as risk factors for mortality. And they found that a lack of social integration or social relationships in your life, was actually connected to the health risk of smoking up to 15 cigarettes a day, it's associated with double the risk of premature death compared to obesity.

So, all these things that we know that are health risks, we don't really think about loneliness as being a health risk, but actually it's kind of like a signal, just like body signals when you're hungry or thirsty, loneliness is just like that. It's a signal that we're lacking something essential for our health.

There was one study that found your risk of premature death increased by 29 % if you were socially isolated. And so social connection is not just something that is a nice thing to have. It's actually fundamental to who we are, to our health and wellbeing and to our biology.

And into the biology point of things, a really cool study looked at sort of biological markers of loneliness. And they actually found that people who had really great social connections and they called it this cool thing, they called it cumulative social advantage. So they defined that as strong social connections among family and friends, as well as in sort of community settings, maybe religious settings, sporting settings. And they talked about it sustained over your lifetime. So that's what cumulative social advantage is. You have these connections sustained over your lifetime.

And they found in this study that people with higher levels of cumulative social advantage had slower cellular aging. This was like a blood-based DNA thing that they looked that reflects your biological age and your disease risk. And they found that you had slower cellular aging, and they also found lower levels of inflammation. So this is like a physical thing that connection creates in our body. And so we are bonding mammals, we need connection.

Gareth King (04:18)

That is crazy. Like one of the things I've been aware of for a long time was loneliness in the elderly. And I've often thought around how that can be addressed through different kind of initiatives, but I never knew about those real health effects. And you, and you can, you know, the comparison there to smoking 15 cigarettes, like that, that's a lot of ciggies, you know, in a day. And I feel like, I feel like it's just not talked about much. I don't, I don't hear anywhere about the, the real health damage and risks of lack of socialisation and social interaction.

So, living not only a longer life but also the general biological health sense is that's all news to me right now. And that is crazy to learn about. So it seems like this is much more important than just face to face, interactions with people. But speaking of face to face interactions, how would you say that the definition of social interaction itself has potentially changed in the age of, the internet and social media as people get more and more of their communication, that kind of technological FaceTime with people rather than doing it in the real world?

Emily (05:45)

That's such a good question. I was actually thinking about that earlier today, knowing we were gonna have this chat. It occurred to me that I feel like we're slowly, it's slowly slipping away this understanding of what it feels like to connect. And it's almost like we're replacing what we think connection is with these kind of less satisfying, gratifying ways of connecting. And like a great example is us chatting today. We're chatting over a video call and it's lovely to see your face and to connect and to see each other's facial expressions. But there's something that gets missed when we're not physically in a room together. And I think that, and I'd love to talk a lot about that today.

I don't know if you've gone out recently camping with friends or if you've been in an environment where you're living you know, you're meeting up with people in real life and having like, you know, I went away with my, some girlfriends over the weekend and we actually spent some seriously quality time together. And the quality of the, like the feeling that I had leaving that weekend, I was on such a high, I felt so re-energised and I could take on the world. And if I'd had those chats over the phone or over text or over video call, it just wouldn't be the same.

So, I know that there's obviously a quality and a length of time there, but I think that the quality of our interactions are shifting. I don't think we're aware as a society of how dangerous it is to not be considering that kind of slowly eroding nature of the different quality of time spent. And so, you know, I would hate to think that in the future generations grow up thinking that connection is talking to someone in a chat box.

Gareth King (07:33)

Yeah that would be awful if that's, that's, kind of becomes the default, and we know that the way people can read social cues and there's even, you can misconstrue his texts so easily because there's no tone of voice or anything like that, which changes the communication and then potentially the entire interaction and the outcome. You know, I can't think of how many times I've texted like my partner or she's texted me and we've reacted to like what? And it's something completely different because you know, you don't have like a little laugh or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (07:57)

Yeah. You mean what?

Gareth King (08:03)

You know, the other, the other interesting point there you made around camping, like, I'm not a gigantic camper, camping's not really my thing, but I do appreciate, as you said, the real slowdown of it. Like you're just so focused on the people there. It does feel like one of the last oases away from technology. I'm just thinking about the times like I've gone camping and if there's a fire, you know what I mean? Like the fire is like the God of the campsite. You know, everyone is just there and then you're just talking. And it's that most fundamental human interaction and it's like I don't know why what it is about camping, but that seems to be the most powerful way of getting everyone away from this new tech driven communication

Well, we just mentioned then around tone of voice, expression and body language that you get only in a face-to-face environment. But once you're inserting phones into situations too, and we've all seen it, you can all be out. And there might be people they look like they're either a couple, they're on a date, or it's like a parent and their kid, and they don't look like they want to be there. Like they're on the phone. They're reading something that's obviously so much more entertaining than the person that they're with, which is unfortunate. But beyond the phone, being there is an obvious distraction, how else would you say that just the constant presence of them there and the constant risk of a notification drawing someone away from the moment, how has that changed the dynamic of our social situations and interactions?

Emily (09:30)

Yeah this is quite important, this concept around, yeah, there's a funny term for it called phubbing, which was a new term, phone snubbing. But I think obviously the distraction piece, we all understand that. We know that those notifications are constantly eroding our executive functioning skills. There was an interesting study done back in 2011. This was a long time ago now, and they looked at four year old children and they got them to watch a really fast paced, like cartoon, it was SpongeBob SquarePants actually. And then they got another group of children to do some drawing. And they then tested their executive functioning skills. And they only did this for nine minutes.

And they found that after nine minutes that the children who were in the fast paced television situation performed significantly worse on executive functioning tasks. And that was controlling for age, the child's attention prior to the session and all that. And actually they even controlled for television exposure. they basically, that's not necessarily the internet, but it is a screen. And there's something that is quite eroding on our mental faculties of having, being in this digital realm.

And so, but going back to the question, what is the effect of being in, you know, being around technology and having people on their phones? Well, you know what it feels like when you're trying to talk to someone and they're, you know, on their phone. experience?

Gareth King (10:42)

Oh look, I'm not like a big social media guy in general. So, I've got far less notifications and things happening than most people. But, one of the times that drives me the most insane is if I'm out for dinner, you know, with my fiancée, and she'll take a photo of something, the restaurant, something there looks really nice, like the decor, the aesthetic. And then she'll start adjusting the photo in front of me, you know what I mean? And I just have to say to her, what are you doing? Can't you do this later on?

So it's not like she's even engrossed in a chat in front of me. It's more just the fact that she's focused on the phone. Now, I don't know if that's my ego saying, hey, look how interesting and important I am, but it's more like we're here for a very limited time to enjoy this space and this meal if we're out for a meal, can all of that not wait? And like, as you said, I'm not even being overly savaged by someone on their phone in front of me.

Like if I'm out with my friends, you know, it could be different. Like people will be speaking with other people. If you're in a group and one person's kind of texting someone else that's not there. It's not as big a deal. But if it is a one-on-one situation, like that, I think that's where it feels the most, what is wrong with me? Am I not, you know, as interesting as your phone?

Emily (12:12)

That's exactly it. And so that's what the research shows as well. The research really shows that, especially looking at children, that children that are engaging with mindless adults who aren't actually present with them, paying attention, are more likely to devalue themselves. And the process is kind of similar to what you just said then. You said, you know, am I not that interesting?

And then so that's the first question that the person being ignored starts to ask, am I not that interesting or am I not worth your time? And then what happens next is the personal attribution, which is the worst part comes in and they start to say, a little child might start to say, I'm not worthy of attention. Am I not that interesting? I'm not an interesting person. that's a psychological kind of, you know, that can take you off on a whole lot of adult therapy, you know?

Gareth King (13:05)

Yeah, look, that sounds awful. And I think as an adult, you cognitively make a few logic leaps there, but just thinking now, and maybe you can help me understand. As a kid, they don't have all the nuance and the various ways of looking at something other than,

I don't know, if you're five years old and you're seeing your mum on their phone and you're just like, mum likes the phone, mum doesn't like me, you know? And that must be awful if it's happening and compounding over a long enough timeframe.

Emily (13:36)

Yeah, the phone is more important than me. I mustn't be as important. And this is a really hard conversation to have because obviously anyone that has kids, it's impossible. You can't be present all the time. You'd go mad. And there's going to be lots of times where you do feel like you can't give your children all the attention that they need. And you shouldn't try to. But it is a significant finding that, especially with phones, that children can really start devalue themselves when we don't pay attention.

Gareth King (14:07)

I'm assuming it doesn't like, the kids had full attention and then the parents like, I've just got to, I don't know, send a text and the kids like breaking down. But you know, times I've seen it if I'm, if I'm like walking my dog or something. And he always, I don't know, he's obsessed with playgrounds for some reason. And if you go past the playground, there's always a kid like on the thing saying, Hey, look at me, look at me. And the parents probably just getting a little bit of a timeout on the phone.

But it's like quite a jarring moment when two people are kind of getting what they need in a situation that could be potentially negatively affecting both of them. know, like the parent might miss out on amazing moment the kid's doing and the kid's missing that focus from their parent in a moment they want to show off and be proud of.

Emily (14:43)

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And then at the same time, the best advice in psychology we ever have around parenting is good enough is, you should really aim for good enough parenting because most of the time, if you're good enough, will really, you know, your children will grow up really well. And if you try for perfection, then you're probably going to, you know, mess them up in a different way.

Gareth King (15:02)

Look, I would imagine that, again, it like nothing's ever good enough for the parent too. But you, we can kind of segue now into phubbing because it is a large, part of this. And, I know you've written some things on phubbing and you probably know a lot more about it than what I do. But would you say that in regards to phubbing, and I love saying that word, it's just fun, you know, would you say that in terms of rather than just as a distraction and avoiding engaging with the person that we're with, how are people using it?

You know like people, you kind of walking down the street, you see someone over there that you may not want to say hi to, or you don't want to kind of engage. Like we know that people will just pull out the phone and use that like, and act like they're distracted. So people are doing that for people, and to avoid uncomfortable silences, even just boredom. It almost is the kind of comfort blanket for people now. Do you think that that's a result of how addictive say the device is, or is it more a result of, how easily we reach a point of discomfort in our interactions, whether they’re with people or even online when we can just like slam people away if they're making us uncomfortable?

Emily (16:22)

Oh that's really interesting. I think this is a really important conversation around people finding it very difficult to sit with discomfort. And obviously like that's, yeah, discomfort doesn't feel great. Like who wants to sit with discomfort? And the other part of this is boredom as well. And so I can totally relate to this. You know, just last night I had a moment to myself and you know, I worked really hard yesterday and then I was eating dinner and I thought, watch a movie or something. And my laptop, the battery was dead and I couldn't be bothered getting up and, you know, fixing it, which is pretty lazy.

But, but what I did was I was like, well, why do I have to fill this space with a movie? Why can't I just enjoy my dinner? And so, but it felt uncomfortable to sit and eat my dinner, you know, just by myself enjoying it. But actually what happened was my body just started to regulate a bit. So, because I was actually becoming a bit, I was noticing how I was eating my food, I just started to notice that my breath was slowing down and my body started to regulate itself.

And that's what happens when we actually allow ourselves time to be with ourselves. Even though the uncomfortable, we have to get over that hurdle of the discomfort if we can kind of allow ourselves to spend a bit more time with ourselves, then it's actually quite regenerating. Whereas what we often find on, when we watch, when we're scrolling, you might feel like you've learned something maybe if you're following the news or whatever, but you might not feel You might feel a bit depleted and a bit scattered. And that's that kind of executive functioning piece.

Gareth King (17:52)

God, it's so interesting because I was speaking to someone the other day about something similar and the kind of analogy was there that if you're just looking at things through a screen, it's just like junk food. Like no one is feeling good just living on junk food. Like it feels amazing in the moment, but then afterwards, you're not feeling so great. You almost feel a little bit guilty. And to your point there, like consuming everything through a screen rather than, you know, like you said, slowing down, being a bit more mindful and experiencing the moment for what it is.

But even on that, depending on what it is, there is just a sea of phones recording the entire thing. And I could be too old, maybe I don't get it, but it's like if I was out and I recorded a crap video of a gig on my phone, I would never watch it again. You know, it's just kind of in my phone and it's a little bit of social currency to be like sent to someone and they'll be like, wow, you were at that thing.

And then I think all these people are like checking the phone, framing it up, like adjusting the settings and things while the event, you know, whether it's a concert, sport or whatever it is, is going on that they're missing because they're so worried about how they can then relay on they were at this thing and they're just losing that entire experience.

Would you say having to document everything, how do you think that that's affecting people when they're A, in a social environment when they're doing that, but also B, when they're in a social environment where they're not doing that and they're not kind of on and playing this character?

Emily (19:35)

Good question. when you're seeing your life through the screen as opposed to experiencing it, it's a different experience of your life. And so it's a very different experience of a concert through that small, square space, as opposed to being there feeling the sounds and the senses and, feeling the vibration of the music into your chest. That's kind of the feeling of being at a concert.

And I guess the challenge with that is that obviously when we're recording, we're doing it for, people have different reasons. So, some people might be doing it just for their own memories. The sad thing is the best way to form memories is to be present to begin with. And you might also be doing it for your own social status to then share online. And then other people might be doing it literally kind of for work. Like, you know, maybe they have a social following and they have to document things.

And so the purpose, becomes a striving type experience, as a doingness, as opposed to a beingness. And I think we are all now in a constant state of doingness and of having to, respond at all times to all sorts of, you know, there's like 20 different ways that people can contact you now. You know, it's like, where did that person, I don't remember that. I know I need to get back to that person, but I can't remember what channel it was on.

Gareth King (20:50)

Yeah, look, I mean, that's a great point. And I'd not actually heard that phrase, the state of doingness before. I'd love to spend some more time on that. Can you just expand a bit more on what that state of doingness is? Cause that sounds really interesting.

Emily (21:10)

The way that I would think about it is kind of a task orientated focus. So instead of, it kind of ties in with this notion of striving to do something, to be something, to achieve something, as opposed to beingness, which is there's no striving. We're just experiencing the state of aliveness and, we're just experiencing what it's like to be here in this moment, connecting and breathing and you know, which sounds very woo woo.

But on a more practical, but on a practical kind of note, this kind of this doing attitude is actually incredibly exhausting and it really leads to burnout because our brains can't be constantly in a state of striving. They really can't. It's just like when you go to the gym and you do your workout and then you go back the next day, you might do your arms, then you do your legs, then you do, you know. But any good trainer will always tell you that you need rest days. And it's on the rest days where your muscle actually grows. And so the brain is just an organ that needs rest moments and rest days. And unfortunately with the state of this constant on doingness, it's really hard for our brains to have rest days. And so, or even rest moments throughout a day.

And in fact, I guess we're talking, we're getting more into presence now, but just micro-moments of presence throughout the day has a huge impact on, you know, just taking a moment to stop, take a breath, and just literally take three seconds to notice how you're feeling will then just redirect you a better direction of wellbeing for the next 10 minutes.

Gareth King (22:45)

Yeah, OK. You mentioned the importance of rest days for the brain. What happens to us, whether it's psychologically or even the way that we can deal with other people, if we don't have those rest days?

Emily (22:59)

I think most people can relate to this. Like we kind of know what happens. We burn out. The biggest state, you know, anxiety and depression are absolute leading causes now of not just mental ill health, but actually complete physical ill health. Like depression is now the leading cause of illness, even over heart disease and physical problems.

So our societies are becoming more anxious, more depressed, and we're struggling to kind of navigate this tech-based environment. And we're struggling to set our own boundaries when they're not put in place structurally for us. And you mentioned before phone addiction, and I would actually probably, being a clinical psych, I probably wouldn't use the term addiction because when, you know, when we work with addiction, it's got a whole raft of issues that are much, much more challenging than that.

But it is 100 % phone dependence and being dependent, and actually, you know, pulling it out when we feel uncomfortable. And you can imagine that the person that pulls their phone out when they feel uncomfortable starts scrolling, they’re then impacting their cognition in a negative way, in terms of executive dysfunction, they're also impacting their health and wellbeing, as opposed to someone who stops and says, I feel uncomfortable. And I have the urge to pick up my phone, but instead I'm going to just sit, just, just going to stay here for three seconds and take a breath and actually just ask myself, why do I feel this way? What is this uncomfortable feeling? Can I name it? Can I give myself permission to feel not okay right now? Maybe there's stuff going on around that means that it's absolutely okay to feel irritated or flat or angry or depressed or whatever it is.

Gareth King (24:48)

That is probably a much better way of putting it, you know, phone dependence, because it’s the depending on the phone as the problem solver for so many different situations. And one of those, as you've alluded to there was avoidance of people and, obviously it's, it's giving us a way out of having to encounter strangers and have these spontaneous interactions with strangers, which you never know where any of those are going to go. What conversation you end up involved in, what you're going to learn about someone, who you might meet, et cetera, et cetera.

So obviously we're cutting off one of those great exploratory things about being a person out in the world with other people, and it's cutting us off from knowing what's happening in our wider communities at large. If we're not connected to our wider communities, because we're so focused on this one little device, what if we break those connections and don't try and repair them? What can happen then?

Emily (25:42)

This is something I think is really powerful to talk about. And there's a researcher called Barbara Fredrickson who's doing some really awesome research around social interaction, distal relationships. So not just our close relationships, I feel like we all know that close relationships are important, familiar relationships, romantic relationships. But what she's looking at is like the furthest relationships in our lives.

So the kind of the broader community relationships, the micro moments of connection you might have when you walk down the street and you smile at someone and you say hi. And she's really interested in that. And it's a really useful, it's an important thing to be talking about in the current era, 2025, because her sort of very interesting take is that our connection to our broader community as a whole might influence how trusting we are of society as a whole.

And the reason for that is that if you think of your local community around you, that's kind of a yardstick for how the world is. And so your close relationships, we all live in little bubbles and silos and they're not a good example of the world as a whole. But when you really think about your community, your broader area that you live or even broader still, this can be a really good yardstick of how the world is.

And so the less time you, I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but I've always noticed that the less time I spend in other people's company, the more kind of you start to judge them, I find. So this has happened to me before with friends where I haven't seen them for six months and I start to maybe create some judgments in my mind, very, you know, not hardcore ones, but just subtle judgments. And then when I see them in person, I remember all their qualities and their energy and all those judgments dissipate. And I don't know if you can relate to that, but I really, yeah.

Gareth King (27:18)

Yeah, totally. And it's very true. Like we all do it. And I either catch myself out about it and I think to myself, you're judging scenarios and stories that you've created about a person. So you're judging them on a figment of my own imagination that actually hasn't even happened. Where I guess my brain goes with this now is if you are avoiding all those people as you as you're kind of touched on there, you're creating an entire societal situation that may or may not even exist which must be incredibly damaging mentally for people?

Emily (28:10)

That's a really cool way of putting it. But yeah, absolutely. And so when you think about our general lack of connection to our local communities these days, and then you think about algorithms of social media, which are really biasing us towards certain emotionally activating content. Really, algorithms run off rage and fear. It really seems like that combination seems to be leading us as society into more divided and siloed places.

And so this is a real fear that I have and a concern that we should be thinking about and addressing that community engagement, community outreach, it's not a fuzzy, lovely, you know, woo woo thing. It's actually the sort of the fabric that our society is built on to be able to connect with each other, to see other people as humans and to see their strengths and weaknesses.

And one of the big things we haven't touched on today, but the biggest thing I think we get from being in a physical space with another person is we get a physical feeling, a shared sense of resonance. And so this is work that Barbara Fredrickson again has been doing around something she calls positivity resonance.

And so she defines this as micro-moments of connection, characterised by having a shared positive feeling together. So, when you laugh together with someone, or when you do something silly, or when you talk about something that you care about, it's not just a cognitive engagement, it's actually a physical feeling, a resonance, or a positive affect, she calls it.

And this actually happens when we actually engage in real life with people, there's research that shows that we have this sort of that biological synchronicity that happens. So, the physical state of being with other people allows us to feel things. and the great example of this is when I'm working in, when I run wellbeing workshops in sort of corporate spaces.

I've often in the past, I've often done an exercise created by a mentor of mine called Craig Hassed. And this exercise is really telling. What you get people to do is you get them to stand next to each other, so one person is going to share something that's really like a proudest moment of their life. And then their partner is instructed to listen while at the same time doing something on their phone.

And you're really saying, now, I don't want you to pretend to do something on your phone. Like, I'm sure you've got an email to send or a message to write. Like, actually do something on your phone, but at the same time, I want you to listen to what this person, their proudest moment. And so they do this, and it's hilarious because everyone, like the energy in the room just drops. And everyone just, like, you can tell it's awful for everyone involved. And then when you debrief them, you say, okay, so what was it like for you to share your proudest moment?

And the person says, look, I actually, I kind of forgot what I was saying. Like I couldn't actually think about the scenario because I couldn't get into a rhythm because there was nothing there to meet me. And I actually was struggling to even communicate. And then the other person says that was really stressful for me. I was literally switching back and forth between both the conversation and my phone. People say I started typing what they were saying into my text to my partner. You know, like they literally couldn't multitask.

Gareth King (31:17)

That’s really interesting around, the proudest moment, you know, cause it is a moment of vulnerability, it's like, you're trying to recount your proudest moment, like you are putting yourself personally out there to be judged on what you consider your own proudest moment. And so I can imagine if you're doing that, obviously not in a role play situation, but if you are doing something like that in, in real life, whether it's your proudest moment or something that you've been thinking or anything that's kind of putting your heart on your sleeve and it looks like someone's just, I don't know, scrolling through Instagram or something while you're doing it, that must be even more devastating than just knowing that they could be texting someone.

Emily (32:22)

Absolutely. And so what happens is we then say to them, ok so, you know, that's interesting that actually this is quite common that if you're wanting to be, if you're really wanting to get some information from someone and actually really understand a detailed explanation, you actually really need to be present. Because if you're not paying attention, then they can feel it. And it actually stops them from even being able to, it's almost like a cognitive block for them even to be able to continue talking.

Which is a fascinating and I can, I don't know if you can remember being in that situation, but I can think of lots of times where I've sort of just I just trail off, you know.

Gareth King (32:55)

Yeah, totally. Yeah, look, there's heaps of times I think about, you know, I might be explaining something that's happened or something that I've been thinking. And as soon as you feel like that person's attention might be on something else, straight away, your brain is like, oh this is boring. They don't give a shit. And then it's just like, why am I telling them? And, know, I know that's how I react. I'm just like, I'll just stop the story and go and do something else. So yeah. And that's me doing it just in a normal moment, not even where I'm really like trying to be vulnerable or something. So that, that sounds awful as a task, but like, what a good demonstration of the damage that it can do.

Emily (33:19)

It is excellent. And then the second part is even more interesting because then the second part you say, okay, I'm going to give you a chance to redeem yourselves, which is really mean because you made them do it the first time. But you say, okay, now this time you're to put your phone away and this time i'm going to give you some very specific instructions. So, person, you're going to share your experience of your proudest moment. You're going to share it again because I guarantee they didn't really hear it the first time.

And the person listening, I want you to do a few things. I want you to pay attention to the intonation of the person's voice as they're speaking. I want you to try and really see if you can notice the emotion in their face or in their words and focus on, you know, try to see their excitement or whatever it is that they're sharing.

And so then we debrief this exercise, and the energy in the room just like lifts so much for this practice. Like everyone's talking and it's really high vibe and you can just feel it in the room change. And then when you debrief this whole exercise, the biggest thing that people come to realise is, is that in the first scenario, when you're talking and you're getting ignored when there's a device in between you both, what happens is that the person does take in the information and they're able to share some facts about the experience, but they don't feel anything. So it's a, it is a cognitive exchange only.

But when you do it again, they start to say, I could feel the pride you had your child when you, when you saw them do this or when you did this, then they say, I could literally feel their excitement. I could feel their joy. And this is what Barbara Fredrickson talks about as positivity resonance. And this is what is getting lost through digital interaction, I feel. And that's where this eroding of our social definitions I think, is moving into a cognitive exchange as opposed to a connecting physical exchange.

Gareth King (35:25)

That makes so much sense. As I mentioned a little while ago I’ll just say it again, like the saddest thing to me is a parent and like their teenager, you know, teenagers are difficult to begin with and you don't know what they're doing, but a parent and their teenager out trying to have a meal and they just both look like they don't want to be there. And as you said, even if they are hearing something, while they're on the device, they're not feeling anything, you know, when I think about it, it's almost like it makes hearing that person's story or thoughts just a chore, just an effort exchange rather than something that you're actually interested in doing, it’s something you've been made to do. And now I think about it like that, that's even worse.

If people are on a date and they're doing it, it's like, okay, the date can go bad. But if you're, if you're, if you're out, you know, you're, you're like 16 and you're out with say your dad, you're trying to have dinner and you're not interested in each other. Like that is, how do you get away from that? You know, like that's so much worse.

Emily (36:20)

It is. And that's a great example. Yeah, I definitely can relate to that and I've also witnessed that. But on the positive side, that the research also talks about just micro moments of connection throughout the day are actually almost probably more beneficial to us than these big in-depth romantic gestures of, so really in order to fill up our, bonding mammal cup, our social brains and feel rejuvenated through social connection, sometimes it's as simple as going to the local coffee shop and chatting to your barista and you know, for a couple of seconds, or it's making an effort to make eye contact with people as you walk past and give them a smile on the street. It's actually being out in the world and being into getting out into our community and having these micro moments of connection.

And that is what is, you know, that is what actually this term social integration is one of the biggest predictors of how long we live. And so being part of not just so if you're someone who, is listening to this and thinking, well, I don't have that many close relationships and I don't like my family and I'm, you know you're starting to feel a bit depressed by all this chat. It's actually the micro moments of connection that anyone can do that actually will replenish and fulfill you.

Gareth King (37:56)

Right. That's, that's super interesting to hear, especially just from a personal level. Here's a, here's a little anecdote. Like a lot of people love Uber Eats and you know, like those things that will bring all your, all their food straight to your door. So you never need to go out and see anybody. You just get it. And I've had so many people tell me that I'm mad because I love going to the shop and ordering it and speaking to the person and standing in the shop. I’ll wait in there for 20 minutes and just kind of see what's going on in the world, hear people doing things. And I love that. These are all strangers to me. And now it makes so much more sense that it's those micro moments that are actually helping replenish. I thought I just was interested in talking to people, but now it feels like there's a much bigger reason why, you know, maybe I actually enjoy doing that.

But while we are talking those micro moments of, you know, connection, one of the things driven by technology that they starting to concern me and I've seen some awful moments about it was the rise of AI and these large language models and people turning to them for not only companionship and friendship and even relationships, but people turning to it for therapy.

And there's been some awful situations that I've already read about that have come out of that. A like what are the risks of people finding their moments of connection through things like that in the immediate term, but B also in the long term, of this kind of solo interaction with, a digital connection rather than a human one.

Emily (39:28)

That's a great question. I actually think that AI sort of therapy tools can actually be quite useful for certain people who, maybe you've got social anxiety, you're not about to go out and meet people and it's much, much better to get some insights from someone from the comfort of your own home.

But what I would argue is that you're not actually getting connection there. What you're getting is insight and insight’s really useful. So, it is helpful to kind of, go back and forth with, a large data set that can tell you information that might be useful and relevant to you. But it isn't actually, in my book, I would say that isn't, you're not getting connection, you're getting insight. And so I would be looking for connection elsewhere.

Gareth King (39:52)

No that makes sense. And I guess, I guess what kind of concerned me about that is, you know, when I've read stories of someone that might've, as you said, they're lonely or whatever, and they turn to chatbots or, large language models as their companion. And then, you know, you're eventually going to have a breakup and it must feel like you, you were one to one with this thing, and it was getting all of your attention. It was hearing everything you were saying. The only thing that's kind of acknowledging you in that way. And then if it might turn on you and it just feels so much worse.

But it was a good point there that you raised around using it to find insights and maybe things you may not realise about yourself, or whether you're using it for just fact finding or even therapy. What would be some good examples of people using those tools in a therapy sense?

Emily (41:08)

I think it could be talking about patterns that you have in your life and you could be asking why might this be occurring? What are some practical strategies I can bring into my life? How can I create a behaviour plan to do that?

But going back to the challenge, I think the one thing I have noticed that is a problem is that what happens when you get a perfect response from an AI-generated person, a perfectly empathic, perfectly worded, validating response is that it starts to skew your idea what other people should be doing.

And so often, people can feel, start to feel like, why doesn't my partner validate me the way that you do? Or you know, and it can actually, I think we need to be mindful that we're all human and that we're not actually able to always be perfect. So that is the response you will get. It's good to learn how to communicate effectively, but you can't expect that.

Gareth King (42:01)

That's super interesting. And it's made me realise that I have seen and read about things where, I don't know, it could be like a wife saying, my husband doesn't get me as well as this chatbot does or vice versa. And I look at that and I'm like, this seems insane to me.

It's just going to take the data you're giving it and give you like a real factual answer rather than those nuances of a person, which I'm sure can bring its own problems.

Emily (42:28)

Well, the chatbot doesn't have its own triggers, its own life experience, its own issues, its own physical experience of you in the moment to go back on. And so, there is definitely a problem where chatbots or AI systems definitely are trained to kind of be agreeable. So, they're definitely trained to kind of say, yeah, I can't believe you did that. And like it can send you off in a, on a route of actually validation that maybe isn't accurate, it isn't accurate critical thinking. Maybe you need to actually own your own, maybe there was something that you need to look at for yourself. And so that also could be an issue that we're starting to see.

Gareth King (42:59)

Yeah, and it makes total sense that that validation there just kind of, reinforces that you were correct in doing whatever you did, which then as we can understand, you take that offline into the real world it's just kind of giving you more ammunition to against real people with which can make the real people problem even worse.

But we've been talking around the way that technology can affect and impact our relationships, situations. There's a lot of negative ways, but as you've alluded to, there's a lot of positive ways as well, especially around people that might have social anxiety. So, in those situations, beyond the ease of communication, how does the convenience of digital comms, whether it's text or voice or even video chat, how does that impact our willingness to make that effort to get out and see people in real life?

I can understand, obviously, if you've got social anxiety, that can kind of break the ice a little bit and connect you with people that you may not have been able to encounter otherwise?

Emily (44:15)

Absolutely. There's so many examples of, I mean, we've talked about a lot of cons, but there are a huge amount of pros from the kind of, we're not getting, so as long as we're recognising, we're not getting the felt positivity resonance experience necessarily from digital interaction, but we are getting information. We're getting connection in a broader sense.

A great example would be, you know, the more activism in Gaza, the flotilla and the social media coverage of that, which then allowed people to in person go to the airport and greet these, you know, heroes as they come back off the flight. And that was, organising and getting groups of people together over common causes. And so there's an amazing amount organisation that can happen through connecting online.

I've got my own personal example of a community that was started during COVID. I was running an online guided meditation every weekday, And it started off as just being a digital experience where people just came, 8.30 to 9, every weekday. And eventually we got thousands and thousands of people tuning in and doing this meditation. And then after time, what happened was these people started to connect further. It was just through a social media platform, but they started to actually direct message each other. And then they would actually start to text each other. And then they started to meet up. And so now this community that started five years ago, regularly meets up a couple of times a year. We go catch up in person. And so, this is a great example of people that never would have met each other in a million years if they hadn't, and then that community growing into something even more profound.

Gareth King (45:48)

No, that's a great example and it goes back to what we mentioned a little while ago if people aren't kind of interacting with their communities in the world and perhaps they're not going to, but maybe this is an even better option to find a community that you've already got something in common with everybody there, to almost remove one barrier to entry for new friendships and relationships etc, which will then allow you to build an even stronger real world community. So when I think about it like that and they may be doing it through digital at start is probably a better way to go to find your people as they say. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

But we've talking about the effects and things for people to be aware of when whether it's technology in a social situation or why they're using it, how they're using it. But what would you say are some practical strategies people can adopt just in general, to make sure they've got healthier social interactions. How do we balance online engagement with meaningful offline engagement?

Emily (46:51)

Alright. Well, I think the topic that going back to the concept of micro connection is really powerful. So I would argue that understanding the research and everything we've shared today, and realising that your mental, emotional and physical health depend on social integration. And when you realise that, it might just spur you on to go for that walk and to actually say hi to someone, opposed to just keeping your head down.

So I would say we can all prioritise just micro connection out in our world. And wouldn't the world be a nicer place if everyone, you know, I actually live up in Byron Bay and I moved here mainly because it has a feeling of a smaller town where people all interact. You would never walk past someone on the beach and not acknowledge them and say hi. And coming from Melbourne originally, you could walk around the city and not ever meet eye contact with anyone.

Gareth King (47:45)

Totally, alone in a crowd. And it's so funny that you say that. Like I, I a little while ago moved to, I guess what you could call the suburbs. You know, I moved out of the city and, the first thing we noticed when we moved here is like everyone you pass in the street will say hi to you. And it's so nice just to be like, I remember speaking to my friends and they're like, what is it like living the suburbs now? I'm like, it's amazing.

Everywhere you go, like you're just saying hi to people, you're having a chat with people, like it feels so much more natural. Whereas as you said, living in the city, it's so forced, like everyone is trying to avoid it.

But as we look to the future, what gives you hope that we can strengthen and maintain all of those social connections, whether it's on an individual level, on a community level, and even kind of claw back some of that potential damage that might have been done, as we figured out over the last 20 years how technology interacts with our social environments?

Emily (48:47)

Good place to end. What gives me hope is actually the generations coming up. I know a lot of people talk a lot about the next generations as being really device heavy, but my experience is actually that they're able to integrate technology in a way, but they're also pretty aware of some of the pitfalls.

And I actually, research in America showed that social media usage has gone down in the last little while. So what is happening is people are actually rejecting, they're aware this doesn't feel good. They're starting to reject these of connection and they're opting for other ways of doing things. You know, there's different cultures. There's cafes in, I know there's a good, awesome cafes in Sweden where devices are banned. You're not allowed any devices and people love them. They're going there to play cards and to connect and to, you know, play games.

And I'm excited about what the next generations are gonna create when they, because they're aware of the troubles and they don't want to be stuck on screens all day.

Gareth King (49:43)

Yeah, that again, that makes sense because I had also read about the social media use peaked. I think, mean, was it 2022 or it's been maybe on a little downward slope. So that could be good. But even just speaking to people in real life, it seems like more and more people had just had enough. I'll be interested to see what happens if, and if that brings us all a little bit back closer together.

Thanks so much for that, Emily. What have you got coming up and where can people follow what you're up to?

Emily (50:12)

Yeah, so my website is emilytoner.com. So, I run workshops and courses for corporates. I also do a lot of work with environmentalists and teams facing around climate change and climate grief. And so, I have a new program called Climate Courage for Teams, which I'm really excited about launching.

But i'm also, I have my own private practice as well. So I also see individual clients, which I love. Only a day or two a week, but if anyone wants to connect and a chat, probably the best way to find me is from my website, emilytoner.com.

Gareth King (50:45)

Awesome - Emily, thank you so much!

Emily (50:47)

Thanks so much for having me.